BookMooch Angel Charity Fund is now accepting reimbursement requests

Please see the charity's bio page for all of the info.

http://bookmooch.com/m/bio/bmangels

Thanks,
Michelle

It seems kind of silly to start it before the point change. Is John thinking about surprising us with an earlier date for the change?

No, I believe it is still April.

Some Angels may currently wish to recoup their point for mooching the book from within their own country, so that is the reason why we are accepting requests now.

After the point change, Angels will still receive 3 points for sending internationally. The only change will be that all 3 of those points will come from the requestor, rather than 2 from the requester and one from the BookMooch "bank".

I will not be angeling under the new system.

>3 michellereads:
I don't understand - we get 3 points now when the angel mooch is requested; it still costs 1 point for the original mooch + we get 0.1 for adding the book but have lost the extra 0.1 for marking it received, so total recompense is only 2.1 points! As it will cost 3 points to mooch a book internationally in April, an angel will always 'be out of pocket' for helping someone get a book from that time! Some of us have very limited choice with local mooching.
I thought the bank was to compensate the fact it will not be comparable - point-wise - angel-mooching and to offer a point for the one now lost?
Why is there an offer now, when it still only costs 2 points for an international mooch but won't be offered when it is increased to 3; but everyone gets 3 points both now and in April???
I'm very confused as to the reasoning behind allocating points from this fund.

I think she's saying that currently, you get 3 points... 2 from a member and one from the "bank". With the addition of the charity, that will go up to 4.

After the switch, you'll get 3 points from the member, plus you could get one from the charity, so still 4, they're just worth less than before because they won't stretch as far internationally.

Well; what you wrote is how I thought it would work too... but Michelle says:

After the point change, Angels will still receive 3 points for sending internationally. The only change will be that all 3 of those points will come from the requester, rather than 2 from the requester and one from the BookMooch "bank".

...which doesn't seem like a total of 4 points to me. But if it is; well and good. Still doesn't help with paying 3 points; but that's just 'flogging a dead horse' to mention that any more. *sigh*

Lman, I think the reference to the "BookMooch 'bank'" is what's confused you - there will be another point from the angel charity, which makes four in total - and I, for one, will continue to smooch those who angel for me (unless they have absolutely hundreds of points), just as a personal thank-you.

Hi Ladies,
I apologize for my incorrect use of the terminology.

Rainbowgirl is absolutely right - the points received will be exactly the same as now, they just won't stretch as far internationally - but that will be true for ALL BookMooch members, not just Angels.

And by "bank", I meant the current point kicked in by BookMooch. When someone asks for an Australian Angel in April, they will need to be prepared to "pay" that Angel the full three points when they mooch the book, not just two of their own, plus one automatically kicked in by BM, under the current system.

Disbursements from the charity fund are now, and will be, offered to Angels so that they are not "out of pocket" (in points) for their trouble. In fact, because they do not have to "supply" the book, and because they (for now) receive .1 of a point for listing the angelled book once it is received and ready to be sent to the PIN (person in need), they will actually come out ahead.

Could I have some feedback, please?

Spot-checks would be easier if angels requested their point reimbursements after the book has been received by the person-in-need. This could take up to six months, however, for a book going to or from, say, the US and Australia.

Do you think it's okay to make people wait this long for their refunds?

Thanks,
Michelle

Ahemmm...as a person who this will affect personally; I'm not exactly sure. *so helpful*

What I would like is to make a list of all those angel-mooches I have actually sent for my refund - as I have paid the postage; and what happens if it gets lost? The cost of postage has still been paid and the point disadvantage would still be felt.

I could scan in my post office receipts for proof perhaps, but it seems hard on someone with few points who has to wait up to 6 months for a refund? And if they send (like me) lots of angel-mooches at a time?

The problem is ultimately an issue of trust until the book arrives - an automated system which can snag back the point if the book is not marked as received by the moocher, with an addition of 'lost' and 'forced-received' issues written in, seems best to me; and what happens with members who leave and can't verify the book was sent?

For people with many points it would not make much difference, for people with few points it would. So it may essentially be saying that only people with many points can afford to angel. I guess it would be up to Boomooch if that is the message they want to project.

Having few points, I do angel a book occasionally for someone (though am not on the official list). (I can confirm the one I am currently requesting has responded by email, just hasn't had a chance to visibly do anything on BookMooch yet due to being busy. Sorry if I requested the point too soon. I didn't know it had to be done later, just did it when I thought of it, and only had 2 points at the time; have more now so no rush.)

In hindsight perhaps the request should be made once the moocher who is angeling receives the angel book from the original sender and it is listing for the person who requested the angel book in the first place (then the request could be made while it is being thought of). That way people in Australia or wherever don't have to wait ages (due to slow seamail, which can take two months or more).

I would say maybe for one or two books, after they are marked sent? A situation where someone is putting together an angel box might be more complicated, since it can take months to get enough books to fill a box. Hmm.

In general, I think it might help if people consistently put "this is an angel mooch for: _____" in the book condition notes. It's an easy way to identify whether a book has been angeled, and I don't think most people would even notice it was happening, so that limits the possibility for abuse.

"Angel mooch for ___" in the comments is something I do, and it eliminates forgetting who you're mooching it for.

When someone is putting together an angel box -- my USA angel does this and it can take up to a year before some books are sent, as it does take many books to fill the box, so I think when the book is listed for the person who requested it to be angeled, would be a good time.

I have been putting the user id for the member I am getting the book for, for forever (could I get another 'for' in that phrase I wonder?) in the comment section when I mooch the book. I just don't add 'angel mooch for ____ and I personally don't want to; just the BM id. It gets too busy for me otherwise, as I usually have a lot of requests at once. I used to put for____ but I don't even put the 'for' now; (I did get another few in...) just the BM id.

I think there needs to be an official 'angel' icon the final recipient hits when mooching the book from the angel - and then it appears when sent...and shows (flashing even; colour TBA and at your personal whim - yeah, as if) beside the mooch! Despite my jocularity, I am very serious about this.

If TPTB on BM want the angel network to keep working as much as it does now...it needs to be a more formal notification.

ETA: then with this icon it will be much easier to request point refunds - as it has been verified by another member that it IS an angel-mooch. If the book is not marked received, then the point can be reclaimed. I really don't think it is fair to ask angels to wait for long slow deliveries; until the book arrives. It's posted - you deserve the point. Just my opinion...

I don't think you should be able to claim points until the book is sent though - even with delays, as the delay is your choice...

Oh, no, I meant that it should be encouraged for people to actually write "angel mooch ____" in the condition notes when posting the book. That way someone looking at your pending outgoing mooches can see clearly that it's an angel mooch. Writing a comment in the mooch request is only good for keeping track of it during the domestic transit stage.

It would be nice to have official toggles on the site but there are so many other outstanding things to deal with (giving feedback for lost transactions, "ask first" on the pending, etc) that probably nobody would get to it for a while.

Oh in the condition notes, yes I do that too. I put "Angel book for ___" in the condition notes then the actual book condition.

Ok, I am delirious with fever but I still don't understand this... I am currently angeling for someone overseas... A US member could not mail to this person but she could mail to me so I'm expecting it this week. In order to qualify for this reimbursement fund, what EXACTLY do I have to do? Write "Angel Mooch" as one of the condition notes of the actual book? Change the book's name to "Angeled for A."?

I swear I've read everything I'm supposed to and still don't understand squat.

Nothing is actually decided, in truth, Elizabeth...just write in the condition notes - when you list the book that it is an angel mooch for ____; that is what we all do...

>17 chelonianmobile:
My bad... I did not understand you...I agree. I even list the book under the author of Lman Angel network and write in the condition notes, and the description of the book, that it is an angel mooch.
Absolutely agree - it needs to written somewhere in the listing.
Sorry... :)

>19 momtorghj: Currently, I think you just need to follow the directions on the Angel Fund's profile page.

Everything beyond that is just sort of trying some fine-tuning.

>20 Lman: I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME. WHAT A TRAVESTY. THIS IS THE LAST TIME I SHALL DEIGN TO INTERACT WITH YOU EVER. *FLOUNCES OFF*

:P

*lmao*...
...Again!

Ummm...so you just gonna ignore my apology and *flounce* then?

(With apologies/thanks to Shakesville.)



Sometimes I feel like busting out the cat macros when people get serious, but that might make me kind of an asshole. :)

OKAY BACK TO THE ACTUAL TOPIC AT HAND.

>23 chelonianmobile:: OKAY BACK TO THE ACTUAL TOPIC AT HAND.

No! I must hijack to add: I love this group so much. So. Much. 8D

*cough* Here, let me return this now only slightly battered thread.

Returning to Michelle's question:

I think that the points should be given after the angel has received the book, because (as bookel pointed out above) some of us angels make up boxes which can take quite a while to collect - I've been building one to go to Finland for 3 months now and I'm still waiting for the last book.

I would like to also add my voice to the camp saying that angels will not want to ask for points. I have more than a hundred points and would feel selfish asking for points, particularly as the UK has fairly cheap postage - I can generally keep international postage down to £1/point. So angeling costs me £1.50/point which is still not going to force me into poverty. I angel because it contributes to the community and keeps the books going round, not because I need the points. On the other hand, it's a bit unfair some angels will be "paid" extra points while those of us who feel we cannot ask for extra points, particularly if we already have lots, will miss out on this "payment".

I would be greatly in favour of some automation of this.

Also, from an administration standpoint, it's unfair to ask one volunteer to constantly manually give points to people, when a technical solution would be much more accurate and would not, say, catch a cold, take a vacation or even just want a day off of the computer now and again.

And would there be any sort of verification? I can see both abuse and people not getting the points they're due because of an unwillingness to seem greedy or sheer forgetfulness. I can see people either angelling a lot and sending several emails each day to Michelle for reimbursement or saving up and asking for dozens of points at a time, which would have to be checked in some way, right?

There needs to be a specific moment to request, because I usually have a few angel mooches at various stages of deployment on any given day. Waiting until the books are received by the PIN means that the angel will have to notice that the book has arrived (and some angels have multiple pending pages or may simply forget that book x was an angel mooch by the time it arrives in Turkmenistan, or wherever) and then think to compose an email. Is there no simpler way to do this? At the same time a book is marked sent to the PIN seems more intuitive. And maybe the reimbursement request should be an automatic form that triggers an email to the PIN that could just verify that the mooch was angelic?

If TPTB really think that the angel network is worth continuing, they should take the time to craft a functioning technical solution that does not rely on a single volunteer doing everything manually.

Is there a particular start date for tracking our angel mooches to request point reimbursement? The bio page for the fund shows the account was created January 20th and this thread was started February 22nd. Should I use one of those dates? Neither?

I plan to start a spreadsheet to keep track and request point reimbursement in small batches (like I send out my packages), but only when my postage cost for a particular package pushes my $ to point ratio up too high.

Thanks so much everyone for all of the great feedback and suggestions!

I'll try to comment on most everything that needs commenting on...first and foremost the kitty photo - am I allowed to make that my favorite post of this thread???? :)

I am close to completely computer illiterate, and have no idea how to make the necessary changes to make things automatic, (plus I don't have that mandate anyway) BUT, I can certainly pass on the (strong) suggestions and hope for the best.

In the meantime, I had never thought of standardizing the request form, but I think I will do that. It might help people feel a little more comfortable "asking" for their points if it is a very black and white format. I too have no plans to ask for reimbursement, but that is because I do very little angelling (we Canadians need to FIGHT for any opportunities to help) and I have more points than I will ever need. I don't think there should be any embarassment about asking, though. Although anyone can see who has been paid out from the fund, it isn't otherwise publicized or even noted on your own profile page. I'll think about ways (other than automation), that might make this more palatible.

Thanks for thinking of my workload RWG, and the workload of whoever eventually takes this over. I appreciate it. So far it has not been onerous and I have put disclaimers in about it taking 30 days, etc., so that people don't expect more than I can give.

Lman, having a book be lost would not be grounds for refusing a refund, but by the time all of the weeks have passed to be able to do that, it would be a heck of a wait.....I'm really leaning more towards an earlier time frame. I don't think scanning in postage receipts is something that needs to be considered unless fraud runs rampant here. I agree that having a "standard" time to request would make it easier for everyone.

So far, spot checks have taken place, and I am looking for evidence of some sort of a relationship between the PIN and the angel, but I am not necessarily requiring it.

Bookel, please don't apologize for requesting early - there's been no rule about when to request so you did nothing wrong. I agree that (at the re-mooch point), is probably the best time to request. If the book is simply re-listed, it is easy for me to see that it has been re-mooched by the PIN. It is more difficult if a generic angel listing is used, but that still demonstrates a "mooching relationship" between angel and PIN and that is good enough, I think.

Chelonian is quite correct, I think, with the following:

"It would be nice to have official toggles on the site but there are so many other outstanding things to deal with (giving feedback for lost transactions, "ask first" on the pending, etc) that probably nobody would get to it for a while."

and also that yes, Elizabeth, you need to follow the instructions on the angel fund charity bio page. But it isn't as clear as it could be, so I am going to do some work on it, based on what we've discussed here.

Kmhyle, I've considered your question and I think that any book that had been requested by a PIN since the date of the creation of the charity fund in January, and forward, would qualify. I think the date of January 20th should therefore be used for those purposes - thanks for requesting clarification.

Thanks again to everyone. Keep posting, or remember that you can send a comment to me via the e-mail link provided on the charity's bio page.

Michelle

>23 chelonianmobile:
So...ahhh... that means it's a *flounce* then?

ETA: I can't quite tell...

25: Well said, I agree
28: If they are advising people that it may take 30 days to get a refund, then waiting until the books arrive and then having them wait 30 days seems inappropriate.

I agree that automation would be a good idea.

1st - OMG KITTY!

2nd - I haven't asked for points for any of my angel mooches that I'm doing right now, because until the 3-point international mooch cost goes into effect I'm still mostly coming out ahead by angeling. Since I have not made a request, I am not sure what could be improved along the lines of keeping the system manual. I do think that points should be rewarded upon the book being received and relisted, and not when they arrive, because that could be ages.

3rd - I just had a random thought - if the basic mooch request code could be changed to help facilitate angel mooches then I have a pony of an idea.

If angel mooches could be marked when mooched automatically, then it could be possible to input the person's name and have it show up on the person's pending page. I don't know how hard it would be to code, but if it couldn't be 3-way, then it could be two simultaneous regular transactions, which the code can already do. I think that would be awesome all around, just imagine it! You'd have your list of accepted books and delayed books and books that are being angeled for you (so you don't accidentally request another one in the interim like I almost did once.) Then once the book arrives with the angel the status can be changed to regular accepted and ping the point bank.
\
That would be the way I would try to do it. You obviously know who you're angeling for when you start, and it would only request the extra point when the book was ready to be turned over, all automatically.

Oh, now I've gone to a happy place - I want that pony!

# 31

I have been dreaming about something like this for a while now. :-) It would really help to keep track of all your angel transactions.

25> I agree with you. I feel kind of weird asking for points when I have so many but I also feel like if other angels are getting them, I should too. I angel ALOT and even though I have alot of points, it isn't like I am not using them.

I don't know. I just feel weird about this whole thing.

>31 macsbrains: As far as pony requests go, it sounds like a damn good one!
And just thinking aloud here, but this might be a very good time to lean on JB to give something at least vaguely equine to the Angels, given the huge amount of disquiet the new changes have caused.

Count me in for a pony! If we get to pick, I have always wanted a Flaxen Chestnut.

Just bumping this up the line a little as I haven't been around much lately. Wanting people to know that the charity is still active and handing out those points to our Angels. I'm a little behind at the moment (I usually reimburse every two weeks but with summer holidays I haven't logged in since July 21st or something) but I'm "back at it" today. Thanks :)