North and South by John Jakes - norabelle414 tutoring Samantha_kathy

North and South by John Jakes

From the back of the book:

North
The Hazards were descended from an English fugitive. Now they were caught up in the modern world of invention and industry. They were pioneers of commerce.

South
The Mains had been rich for generations, plantation owners, guardians of a way of life that modern industry threatened to shatter.

The eldest sons of these two families meet in the army, and a friendship is formed that links the Hazards and the Mains inextricably in love as well as hatred, in business as well as friendship, until the approaching civil war tears the families apart.

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I'll be back with questions later today :D.

Hi Samantha!

I don't know how much you know about American history/geography, so please forgive me if I'm oversimplifying with this little bit of background information:

The main difference between the North and the South leading up to the Civil War was in the basis of their economies.

The North is smaller, colder, rocky, and infertile and generally not ideal for growing crops. It was originally mostly colonized by people trying to escape political & religious persecution. The American Industrial Revolution (the period between The War of 1812 and the American Civil War) was HUGE in the North because the climate and geography (big cities, ports) is perfect for factories and industry. Because of these cities and factories (meaning: jobs), the North was a magnet for immigrants. A factory worker who saved his pennies or came up with a great invention would have the opportunity to grow rich and move up in society.

The South is vast and has lots of fertile soil which is great for growing high-yield "cash crops" like tobacco and cotton. It was mostly colonized by people who were looking to make their fortunes (first by mining for gold & other valuable minerals, then by cash crops). Because there was so much land, land was cheap (at first) and entrepreneurial farmers developed huge plantations with the help of cheap slave labor. Plantation owners grew richer and richer on the backs of their slaves, while poor white farmers (roughly 70% of white Southerners) stayed poor because they couldn't afford slaves.

Thanks, that's very helpful. I don't know a lot about the US, what we got in history at school was mostly about how the US affected things here in Europe.

We'll be seeing more of this period - the book goes from roughly 1842 to just before the Civil War really breaks out. It's the first part of a trilogy, so I assume the other two will deal with the Civil War itself and perhaps the aftermath? Anyway, I'm not there yet :D.

Off to start the prologue now.

Just to say I'm lurking (although not reading the book). I know almost nothing about American history and geography too.

>4 souloftherose: Great! Ask as many questions as you can think of.

Prologue: Two Fortunes

1686: The Charcoal Burner’s Boy

Joseph Moffat lives with his mother and stepfather Windom, who’s a charcoal burner. Joseph himself is an apprentice to iron master Andrew Archer, and Giles Hazard, who works for Archer, takes him under his wing and teaches him. Windom abuses Joseph’s mother and things escalate one evening. Joseph kills Windom in defense of his mother, who dies anyway, and Giles Hazard helps Joseph get away – giving him his last name to better hide him from the authorities. Joseph indentures himself to a captain for seven years who sails to the New World, after which he will be free to start a new life in America.

1687: The Aristocrat

Charles de Main, born the 14th duke of his line, and his wife live a comfortable life in France when suddenly things change. Religious persecution begins and Charles and his wife are arrested and tortured because they are Hugenots. They manage to escape with the help of bribery and flee to the New World, to Charles Town, Carolina. Charles becomes a trader, including trading in Indian slaves, but they are poor and his wife cannot have children. Then he captures an Indian girl he sleeps with, gets pregnant, and passes her child off as his sister’s orphaned son. Also, he gets a plot of land to start growing crops.

At the end of the prologue, Charles and Joseph briefly see each other.

Questions:

1. This indenturing, was it common? It seems that way. Were there rules to it?

2. Carolina is called ‘the royal colony of Carolina’ in the text, why is it royal?

3. ”Indian slave trade had been illegal in the colony for several years, but it was a profitable business and still common.’ African slave-trade was legal, yet Indian slave trade was not? Why?

4.After a failed escape attempt by the Indian prisoners of Charles ”When he returned from the brush, he found an obviously shaken King Sebastian quirting the braves still alive.” What does quirting mean?

5. At this point in the book, Charles Town is a rather poor town, a failure, since no crop seems to want to grow in the damp area. But then ‘Madagascar seed’ is introduced – rice, which thrives in the wet. Was rice such a new crop? And honestly, I had no idea rice was ever grown there – was it, or was this plan a failure as well?

1) Early in American history, making one's fortune in America was ridiculously cheap, but getting to America in the first place was prohibitively expensive. Land for farming was more or less free if you could shoo the Native Americans off of it, and natural resources were plentiful. So if farmers, homeowners, and shopkeepers wanted cheap labor, they had to get an indentured servant. Ship Captains would pick up young men (usually) in Ireland, England, Germany, etc. and take them to the Americas free of charge as long as they signed a contract saying they would work for free for X number of years upon arrival. (Usually 7-10 years). Upon arrival in America, the Captain would sell the contracts to people who needed cheap labor. The employer provided room and board, and the indentured servant worked without pay until the end of his contract, at which point he was free to do as he pleased in the New World. Indentured servitude was extremely common; it's estimated that 2/3 of all white immigrants to America during that time period were indentured servants. There might have been some other rules beyond the obvious "don't run away" written into a contract, such as women being forbidden to get pregnant. For the most part, indentured servants were treated as if they were family. At first, this was not limited to white people, as the first people to be imported from Africa signed contracts and were given eventual freedom as well.

2) The Province of Carolina was founded by King Charles II of England, who named it after his father, King Charles I of England. I don't think that Carolina was particularly any more royal than the colonies that were founded by monarchs.

3) (I'm assuming this is referring to Native Americans and not Indians from India. If I'm wrong, let me know)
I can't find any evidence of the enslavement of Native Americans being illegal, but it was certainly less prevalent than African slavery at that point. Most of the Native American population had been wiped out by a) European diseases and b) warring between the different tribes. Most Native Americans that were enslaved by the colonists were actually prisoners of war that were sold to them by other Native American tribes. So the tribes were always fighting in order to get prisoners to sell.

4) A "quirt" is a kind of short whip used for herding cattle. So I'm guessing "quirting" would be whipping the slaves, in punishment for running away. P.S. Do not Google that word without SafeSearch on :-0

5) The rice plantations were a huge hit in Charles Town (now known as Charleston). It was the main crop for the marshy coastal regions of the South, and is still grown there today. A lot of Southern cuisine revolves around rice. It was also a huge reason for the importation of slaves from Africa, as marshes are breeding grounds for mosquitoes, which can carry malaria, and many people of African descent have a natural genetic immunity to malaria. Europeans and Native Americans don't have that immunity, and malaria pretty much guaranteed death. At that point, rice was grown pretty much everywhere in the world except northern Europe and the colonies, so it's possible that it was new to them.

3. The Cherokee (one of the "civilized tribes") were resident in South Carolina at the time. (They were expelled after the Revolution.) I think the prohibition on enslaving them came from the idea that they were "civilized" and slaves were not. The Cherokee themselves actually held African slaves.

>8 aulsmith: Ahh, good point. I hadn't thought about the particular tribe.

9: It is always difficult to remember which tribes were where when.

7>
1. From the text, I got the idea that Joseph would remain indentured to the captain for 7 years. A year later Joseph is still with the captain.But maybe that's just because the captain needed someone for on the ship?

3. Yes, I did mean Native Americans. Should have just written that, but the book uses the word Indian - probably because that's the word they used back then.

5. See my ingorance of USA geography and history in action :D. I had no idea rice was still grown there today.

8> Thanks for the clarification!

1) Yep, passengers could definitely remain indentured to the ship's captain, if the captain didn't want to sell their contract.

3) It's okay, it gets confusing. The idea was prevalent in about the 1980s that calling Native Americans "Indians" was bigoted and they should be called "Native Americans", but then a door-to-door poll of Native Americans revealed that they mostly prefer to be called "Indians" or "American Indians". I think for the sake of this book we can assume there are no Indians from India involved :-)

Book 1: Answer the Drum

Chapter 1

June 1842

We meet Orry Main, sixteen years old from South Carolina, as he arrives in New York where he is to board a steamer to the Military Academy. He gets into a fight and is assisted by George Hazard, seventeen years old from Pennsylvania, who is also there to go to the Military Academy.

We are briefly introduced to George's family: his father William, head of Hazard Iron, and his wife; their eldest daughter Virgilia (20 years old), who's very outspoken against slavery; George's older brother Stanley, and his little brother William (Billy), who's six or seven years old.

We learn that Orry's family owns a rice plantation, and he has an older brother, Cooper, who refused his appointment to the Academy - which is why Orry got it - and Cooper's independence causes much problems with their father.

Questions Chapter 1

1. When Orry is preparing to board the steamer, a stevedore interferes and says only he can put the trunk on board - which is a swindel, apparently. What is a stevedore?

2. Sojer boy is used as an insult to Orry. What does it mean/why is it an insult?

3. Brother Jonathan was a popular symbol for the nation. A rustie, a Yankee. Who was Brother Jonathan and why is he a symbol for the nation? Also, where does the word Yankee come from? I know it is used to describe people from the Northern states, but I thought the word came about in the Civil War, but apparently it was used before that time.

4. "Blackguards," a man bellowed. "Where are the authorities?" What were blackguards? A version of police officers?

5. From the Military Academy at West Point the following is said: it's the best scientific education available in America. I'm a bit confused about this, since it's a military academy.

Chapter 2

Orry and George arrive at the Academy.
We learn that Orry is rather bookish, wants a long military career, and the educational side of things are not really his strong point. (Arguably, in the military side he's not as good as George either).
George, in contrast, deems himself fairly wordly, intends on only serving the four year minimum after graduation before returning to civilian life, and the educational side of things is very easy for him.
Also, one of their drillmasters, Cadet Bent, is a sadist and his it in for George especially, but also for Orry.

Questions Chapter 2

1. When describing the military uniform: A big cutlass hung from a heavy belt. I gathered that a cutlass is some kind of sword, I think? Was it ornamental or actually used in battle?

2. Public opinion has it that the Academy is elitist, a school serving only the sons of the wealthy and well connected. Looking back now, is that true?

3. Mention is made of the War of 1812. What war was that?

4. Mention is made of the Corps of Engineers, and that they are the elite of the Army. What is the Corps of Engineers? Are they the officers?

5. Cadets and newcomers marched back to barracks, with fifes supplementing the drum cadence. What in the world are fifes?

6. After dinner, around bedtime: Between all-in and tattoo, a couple of upperclassmen stopped by to introduce themselves. What does between all-in and tattoo mean?

7. A subject on the entrance exam is orthography. What is it?

8. Mention is made of General Winfield Scott - the nation's foremost soldier and a great hero. I've never heard of the man before, can you tell me something about him?

**********

Unbelievable that 20 pages of text can yield so many questions. But everything is so...strange. It feels like I'm going "What? What does that mean?" every other sentence. I'm very glad I don't have to figure this out on my own :D.

Chapter 1

1) A stevedore is a dockworker, particularly someone who is in charge of loading and unloading cargo.

2) Not sure, but I'm guessing it's "soldier boy" with a rural Southern accent. So they were making fun of him for being from the countryside and having an accent.

3) No one really knows the origins of the term "Yankee", but it has definitely been in use since the American Revolution. It's used by people outside of the US to describe Americans (often derogatory), and it's used by Americans to describe people from the North, particularly New England (often derogatory).
Brother Jonathan was not a real person, he was just a personification of the United States, like Uncle Sam is now. (see hilarious cartoon below)


"Mrs. Britannia - 'Is it possible, my dear, that you have ever given your Cousin Jonathan any encouragement?'
Miss Canada - 'Encouragement! Certainly not, Mamma. I have told him we can never be united'"

4) Blackguard (pronounced 'blaggard') is another word for scoundrel, especially one who uses profanity in front of a lady.

5) West Point isn't just a boot camp for soldiers; it's a training school for high-ranking military officials. Science and the military are not mutually exclusive; the US military spends tons of money on scientific research, especially that which gives them an advantage. Also, at the time there were not many colleges in the US, so West Point probably had a lot of money and good teachers.

5. Saying West Point gave the best scientific education is either an exaggeration or an error on the author's part. While the big universities at the time (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia etc ) were still providing mostly gentlemanly education for ministers, lawyers and doctors, there were smaller schools that were beginning to see the importance of science education. Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, another 50 miles up river from West Point was certain among the best, if not the best, at the time.

Chapter 2

1. A cutlass is indeed a sword, on the short side of full-sized, known for being used by sailors and especially pirates. They are still carried by the US Navy for ceremonial purposes.

2. I'm not sure how things ran back then, but nowadays a cadet must be sponsored by a member of Congress. That's relatively easy with telephones and e-mail, but back then might have been a privilege limited to elites whose families already knew Congressmen.

3. The War of 1812 was a war between the United States and the British, that lasted from 1812 to 1815 (with various Native American tribes assisting each side). The Americans believed they were being insulted by the Brits in various ways and needed to fight for their honor and to affirm their independence. The Brits changed some of their policies and the reasons for the war fizzled out. It ended with the Treaty of Ghent in late 1814.

4. The Army Corps of Engineers is a huge US Army Command specializing in engineering for public works like dams, canals, parks, urban planning, etc. Like any other command, it's made up of all different ranks of the Army, but (depending on your point of view) could be considered elite because of the training and high-level education required for their jobs.

5. A fife is a simplified piccolo, or short flute.

6. I've never heard of "all-in" before, but the Military Tattoo is a short military parade with music performed every evening to signify that it's time for bed. So I'm guessing that "all-in" means "everybody get in the base" or something similar.

7. Orthography is the study of advanced writing skills, like spelling and grammar

8. General Winfield Scott was the longest-serving active-duty General in US history. He lead troops in The War of 1812, The Mexican-American War, The Black Hawk War, the Second Seminole War, and the Civil War. He ran (unsuccessfully) for President in 1852. He retired at age 71 during the Civil War because he was sick and had become too fat to ride a horse. He died in 1866.

3. For you Europeans a small side issue in the Napoleonic Wars.

4. The (current) Army Corps of Engineers got blamed for the flooding in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina. I'm not sure when their civilian duties relating to dams, levees, etc. started. They started out building and maintaining fortifications.

>15 aulsmith:

6. I asked one of my coworkers and she says that "all-in" is (was) a roll-call done in the evening, to make sure that all soldiers were accounted for.

>17 aulsmith:

4. The first public works job tasked to the Army Corps of Engineers was the rebuilding of New Orleans after The Battle of New Orleans (the final major battle in The War of 1812, which actually occurred after the war was over, but the troops hadn't been notified yet). However, the levees that were constructed by the Army Corps of Engineers that eventually failed during Hurricane Katrina weren't installed until the late 1960s.

14>

3. Ah, that makes sense. I’d heard of Uncle Sam, but Brother Jonathan was not familiar to me. The cartoon is great :D!

4. That makes more sense than calling for the authorities twice like that. And had I known how to pronounce it, I probably would have at least recognized it as an insult. Learn something new every day :D.

5. We don’t really have military academies in the Netherlands to my knowledge, although I could be wrong. Not like you’re describing here. But it makes much more sense this way.

15>

5. It’s an exaggeration, considering it’s a character that says it. It was the ‘best science education’ comment that really threw me with this whole military academy thing, so it’s good to know that at least isn’t true.

16>

2. Sponsored by a member of Congress, really? Do you need to be sponsored for every military academy (like the Air Force Academy, which is the only one I’d actually heard of before this book, although West Point did ring some faint military bells)?

4. Well, the elite comment comes from the text, so I’m imagining that in the 1840s being an engineer was a big deal.

6. Ah, that makes sense. I guess all-in means everybody back to their barracks, since the chapter also reported that cadets get 1 leave, between their second and third year, that’s it.

17>

3. And considering the Napoleonic Wars are not really given much attention nowadays – I think we had maybe a few pages on Napoleon and how he conquered the Netherlands during history class – it’s not surprising I had no idea what war they were talking about.

4. They got blamed? No, scratch that, I should ask: they were responsible for the dams? Over here where we constantly fight against the water, the military is the last people who get involved with dams and dykes and such. They usually get called during severe storms to fill up sandbags (last week, actually, in the Northern provinces), but that’s about it. All of it is in civilian, governmental hands.

18>

6. Ah, all cleared up! Thanks.

4. See my comment above( under 17>) about this

>19 Samantha_kathy:

Ch 1, question 5) West Point was the first engineering school in the US, and was the major science research school until Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute was founded in 1824. So at this point in the book West Point was not the best scientific education, but it had been in the recent past. There are currently 5 service academies: West Point (founded 1802), US Naval Academy (f. 1845), US Coast Guard Academy (f. 1876), US Merchant Marine Academy (f. 1943), and US Air Force Academy (f. 1954). Except for the Coast Guard academy, all applicants must be nominated by a member of Congress, and only a certain number are admitted per state. The Coast Guard does not have per-state admissions, and doesn't require nomination. The academies have an 11-15% acceptance rate, and all cadets or midshipmen attend free of charge.

Ch 2, question 4) In the US, the military is part of a governmental department. Not everyone who works for the military is in the military. I work for Navy Medicine (which I'm guessing functions similarly to Army Engineers) as a civilian but I am not in the Navy. So the Army Corps of Engineers has civilians working for it too. There's also a big difference between soldiers who are on "active-duty" (in war zones or on ships) and when they are not on active duty (they do normal jobs like doctors and administrators and politicians). The Army Corps of Engineers does not do as much now as they used to, but they used to do EVERYTHING. Among other things, they built the Washington Monument, the Pentagon, the Panama Canal, and Kennedy Space Center.

Chapter 3
July 1842 – June 1843

Bent continues to make life more difficult for George and Orry. They vow to get him back one of these days. George is excelling at his class work without studying much, while Orry continues to struggle with it.
They make it through January examinations and sneak out to get some illicit beers and cigars (George’s idea). They’re caught by Brent, but make a run for it. Brent falls through the ice while chasing them and they go back to rescue him. But then Brent betrays them anyway. Orry takes a stand against Brent, threatening to kill him if he doesn’t stop harassing Orry and George, which seems to have worked, so far.
Orry falls ill, the fever going so high that they fear for his life. George waits by his bedside until he’s out of the woods.
The Hazard family, except Virgilia, visit, and Orry asks them to help his brother Cooper who’s having problems with iron parts at the mill breaking excessively. Later, Cooper visits and he reports that George’s father and brother did indeed solve the problem. Orry notices that his brother seemed upset, but doesn’t know the reason. (I got the feeling Cooper was regretting not going to the Academy himself)
Orry and George get their nicknames: Stump (George) & Stick (Orry) – “Parts of the same tree.”

Questions Chapter 3

1. The two-month summer encampment, prescribed by law. Why was the summer encampment prescribed by law?

2. A cadet hop was held each week. I gathered from the text that a cadet hop was some sort of ball or party, and there were ladies there. Why was it held? Could cadets even have a relationship (since alcohol and smoking is prohibited)?

3. Cadets are ranked according to their class scores each week. In French, Orry is in the lowest section – among immortals as the cadets called them. I don’t get the ‘among immortals’ comment, although it is repeated elsewhere in the chapter. I’d say that it was something positive, being among immortals, but clearly it is not.

4. Mention is made about ‘the Southern clamor for annexation of Texas’. Could you tell me about that? Where did Texas belong to, if not the South? And wasn’t every state alone, or at least all under one common federal government? So how can the South annex Texas?

Chapter 3

1) Well, since West Point and the military are run by the government, anything that's writen in their policy is "prescribed by law"

2) A "hop" is indeed an old fashioned word for a party or dance, like a school dance or a church dance. Parties were pretty much the most entertaining thing that could happen in that era, and it was an opportunity for the cadets to socialize with women in a "safe" environment. Today, each class at West Point has one "weekend" which involves a formal dinner and a hop. I'd imagine that the cadets would be allowed to write letters to girlfriends/fiancees at home, but I don't know anything about relationships with local women.

(I have to run, I'll answer the others in a couple hours)

2. I suspect that many of the women attendees were from New York City since you could come up on the steamboat or train and return to the City after the party. Cadets were good marriage catches, since they would be officers when they graduated, though I suspect that marriages were deferred until after they did indeed graduate.

Hmm, maybe cadets weren't such good catches. Ulysees Grant evidently had trouble supporting his family as a young officer. See the Wikipedia article

Chapter 3

3) I know that the lower half of the 4th year class are called "Goats", but I've never heard of the term "among immortals" used for anything but the best of the best. Maybe they were being sarcastic?

4) Texas has actually been a part of 6 different countries. First it was colonized by Spain. Then a small part of it was colonized by France. It participated in the Mexican War of Independence (from Spain) and in 1921 became a part of the new country of Mexico. It then won the Texas Revolution and was its own country from 1936 until 1846. So at this point in the book, it is the Republic of Texas (though it was much larger then, and included parts of what are now five other states). It's notable that one of the causes of the Texas Revolution was the fact that the part of Mexico it belonged to wanted to abolish slavery, but the residents of Texas (mostly immigrants from the Southern US) did not agree. The Republic of Texas applied several times to be annexed to the US, but was rejected because the Presidential administrations at the time feared war with Mexico. The Republic of Texas was successfully annexed as five states in 1846, followed promptly by the Mexican-American War, which was essentially a war over the location of the Mexico-Texas border. I'm sure you'll be reading a lot more about that war later.
When the Southern states seceded from the US in 1861, Texas went with them, making the Confederate States of America (CSA) the 6th "country" to lay claim to Texas.

4) Wow, that's much more complicated than I thought.

The clamour from the Southern states for annexation was to get another slave holding state in the Federal mix. There was some complicated plan (which I don't remember) about how new slave-holding and new anti-slavery states would be admitted to full statehood.

There were a bunch of different resolutions:

The Missouri Compromise (1820) said that new states could only be slave-holding states if they were below 36 degrees north latitude (with the exception if Missouri, which was above the parallel but had slaves), and attempted to equalize the number of slave-holding and free states.

The Compromise of 1850 said that California was a new free state and Utah and New Mexico were new states that could decide to be slave-holding states if their citizens wanted it.

The Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854) repealed the Missouri Compromise and declared that all new states would be able to decide based on a vote of their landowners whether or not they wanted to legalize slavery. This lead to a very violent war called Bleeding Kansas.

Butting in to say: This is a great intro for me into a tutored read. Looks like its working really well, nice one!
PS this is the book I thought I was reading when I entered into the group read of North and South - my one is the one by Elizabeth Gaskell. I was led astray! But I can learn what I want to from your thread, thanks.

Ch.3, q 1) Norabelle: Ah, that would explain that. I thought it was a weird thing, making a law that there had to be a summer encampment.

Ch. 3, q 2) Aulsmith: there’s a hotel nearby West Point (in the book, anyway) and a lot of women (and other people) apparently stay there. I’m assuming they go to the parties. Perhaps West Point is a convenient stop on a traveling route?
And you’re right, young officers aren’t great catches – at least not in Britain in this (and later) time periods. It wasn’t until they were higher ranked (think Major and higher) that they could comfortably support a family. It’s one of the reasons British officers often married much younger women.

Ch. 3, q 3) Norabelle: That’s why I got confused, I have never heard it being used for something else than the best of the best either. Perhaps it is indeed used sarcastically, but if it is, it isn’t readily apparent from the text.

Ch. 3, q 4) Norabelle: Okay, so the history of Texas is a little more complicated than I thought. The political reasons for trying to annex Texas were explained in the story, but other than that I had no idea of all this. Seeing as that Orry and George will graduate in the summer of 1846 (if all goes well), and then have to serve for 4 years, I’m sure they will get involved with the Mexican-American War.

28: Ireadthereforeiam> It took me a while to figure out that when I said ‘North and South’ most people thought I was talking about the Elizabeth Gaskell novel, which I had never heard of before :D. So you’re not alone in getting confused!

Samantha_kathy - The hotel makes a lot of sense, it would be quite a trek back to anywhere after a party at West Point. It was definitely a steamboat stop on the New York City to Albany line. They still run boat excursions from both New York and Albany to West Point in the summer. I'm not sure where the train on the west side of the river stopped. It probably didn't stop in West Point itself which sits on a rocky promontory above the river on the west side -- hence, West Point. So, rather than building the train up the hill, they probably stopped somewhere below and took carriages up. (The west side train doesn't run any more so I don't know the route.) The east side train, which does still run and provides a beautiful view of West Point, has a stop nearly directly across. So maybe they ferried passengers over.

Ireadthereforeiam - Gaskell's North and South is evidently about the split in Britain between the industrial North and the (more pastoral?) south. It was brought up in the Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell tutored read.

Chapter 4

June 1843

Cooper Main returns home. We learn he is often bitterly critical of his state, and of the coastal region where he lives in particular, but that he loves both deeply. He also often has the feeling that the Mains should be in some less capricious, more modern business. His ideas often put him at odds with his father’s traditional views.

We learn more about Orry’s family, which consists of his father Tillet Main, his mother Clarissa Gault Main, two younger sisters – Ashton, eight years old, already beautiful and conniving, and Brett, six years old, not nearly as beautiful as her sister, and seemingly the only one who sees Ashton’s true nature – and Cousin Charles, seven years old, who’s the orphaned son of Tillet’s brother, who Tillet didn’t held in great esteem.

Charles Main falls outside of the family and therefore seeks companionship, even friendship, with the black boys in the village. He does not think slavery is just, but he is too young to realize there’s another way to do things. While he’s in the slave village playing with one of his friends, the overseer Mr. Salem Jones, comes there because he has his eye on a slave girl named Semiramis. When she tells him no (again), Jones takes it out on her brother Priam. Charles stands up for Priam, which gets him into trouble with his uncle – who basically tells the boy he thinks him worthless. Clarissa disagrees with her husband about that, and she also expresses doubts about slavery, but only in private.

Questions Chapter 4

1. In the text it is mentioned that in the coastal region of South-Carolina miasmic fever kills scores of whites every year. Is miasmic fever malaria or something else? Does it only affect white people, or do the white people just don’t care if their slaves die of disease?

2. (When talking about Tillet Main:) At the same time, he was the victim of a growing sense of inferiority which he was helpless to control or defeat. It was a malady Cooper recognized in many Southerners these days. His trip had confirmed that such a condition was not without good cause. This is not the first time that the South is referred to as ‘barbaric’ and ‘backwards’ opposed to the North. Were they really that behind?

3. He referred to the organizer of an 1822 slave uprising, one Denmark Vesey, a free mulatto of Charleston. The uprising had never taken place; it had been discovered and crushed ahead of time. Were uprisings, or attempts at an uprising, common? Or were most slaves ‘content’ (for lack of a better word) with their lives?

Chapter 4

1) At the time, it was thought that most diseases were caused by "miasma", which means "bad air". Miasmic fever was a term used for any illness caused by miasma, because the actual causes of the diseases were unknown. (The concept of "germs" was just being discovered at that time.) So it could refer to any of a bunch of things, like malaria, yellow fever, typhoid, cholera, chlamydia, or allergies. In this case it was probably malaria, spread by mosquitoes that lived in the marshes and rice paddys. Many people of African decent have a natural genetic immunity to malaria, which would explain why they were not getting as sick.

2) They were steadily decreasing in influence, for sure. The culture of the South was based on tradition (and the repression of slaves and other poor people), and there was no system in place to reward ingenuity. The North was attracting immigrants (and their ideas) from all over the world, and thus their population was growing exponentially. Since half of our Congress is population-based, that meant that the North was gaining more influence in Congress as well. The Southerners were beginning to feel that their traditions and way of life were being attacked by the rest of the country, which could be why Tillet was feeling inferior.

3) Uprisings were fairly common, but were almost always smothered quickly. Denmark Vesey's uprising, even though it was stopped before it started, was one of the most famous slave uprisings in US history. He was betrayed by two slaves who did not agree with his plan. There certainly were slaves who believed the slave-owners' stories of white superiority, but most slaves were likely just afraid. If a slave revolted or escaped in Charleston, for example, they would have to make their way undetected all the way to Maryland (about 550 miles) before they would be in a free state. And even then, due to the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, Northerners were obligated by law to arrest any escaped slaves and return them to their owners. If slaves did escape or rise up against their owners, there wasn't anywhere for them to go.

32>

Ch 4, q 3) They were obligated to arrest escaped slaves? That’s really surprising because recently I read A Different Kind of Christmas by Alex Haley, where there were meetings (mostly of Quakers, but also other abolitionists) where they collected things like blankets for escaped slaves, showed newly escaped slaves and their injuries to incite people to give even more, things like that. This was set in 1855, and it seems a bit at odds with the Fugitive Slave Act that you’re describing. Also, I heard (somewhere) that if escaped slaves made it to Canada they were truly free, and perhaps also in Mexico?

Chapter 5

July 1843 – June 1844

George is promoted to corporal. This embarrasses Orry who still wants a military career, but doesn’t seem to affect their friendship.

Orry isn’t very suave with the ladies at the few hops he is strong-armed into going to. George discovers Orry is still a virgin and decides to do something about it. He takes Orry with him when he and four other cadets go to a prostitute. This visit convinces Orry that there is one and only one woman for him, and he is sure he will know her the instant he meets her.

George goes to Benny’s Haven (= a bar) at the end of May 1844 for illicit cigars. There are many upperclassmen there, but George bluffs his way in. Bent is also there and he expresses his belief that generals shouldn’t expose themselves to fire, but that individual soldiers are interchangeable. George is disgusted by this.

Orry and George attend an illegal cadet party to celebrate the beginning of summer – and for them also the beginning of their first summer leave. Bent’s opinions on generals is a topic of discussion and all attendants agree: Bent is willing to do anything to get higher up and that makes him a very dangerous man.

Questions Chapter 5

1. Not a question, but: Pants with fly had recently been introduced at West Point, despite opposition due to the moral decay signified by pants with buttons down the front. This just struck me as extremely funny. Wonder what they’d think of zippers? *grins*

2. At the end of May 1844 a piece of recent news from Washington reaches the cadets: The inventor Morse had sent a message over a wire all the way to Baltimore. Bent predicts this is the dawn of the age of improved military information and that it will be used in the next war. Is he right? I know Morse code was used in the military for a long time, and that it is still taught today, but I wonder how long it took to be used since it’s invention. You’ve already told me that the Mexican-American War of 1846 (a mere 2 years away) is the next war that will be fought. Did they use Morse code then?

3. During the summer party: They talked about the Oregon problem; the April treaty providing for the annexation of Texas; the Democratic nomination convention that only the day before had turned from the favorite, Van Buren, and chosen a border man, Polk, who was an avowed expansionist.

a. What is the Oregon problem they are talking about?

b. When they say ‘the April treaty providing for the annexation of Texas’ it sounds like they’re annexing Texas already, but earlier you told me it wasn’t until 1846. So what am I missing?

c. I’m certain that the bit about the Democratic nomination convention choosing Polk over Van Buren is important later on, and perhaps the names are familiar in the US, but they tell me nothing. Also, just to make sure I am getting it, the Democrats chose which candidate they would support as a Presidential candidate in the upcoming Presidential elections, right?

>33 Samantha_kathy:
Ch 4 Q3) They were required by law to return slaves to their owners, but many abolitionists did illegally help slaves escape. Slavery was abolished in Canada in 1834 by the British "Slavery Abolition Act", and obviously the US's Fugitive Slave Act didn't apply to them. Mexico abolished slavery in 1829, so US slaves would have been safe there too.

Chapter 5

2) I believe the invention they're talking about is not Morse Code, but the electrical telegraph. (Other people had invented the telegraph before Samuel Morse, but his is the only one that caught on). The early telegraphs relied on physical wires to carry messages. They were certainly used during the Mexican-American War to transmit messages over short-ish distances. Previously, messages from somewhere as far away as Texas would have taken months to get to the big cities (via horseback or train), but after the telegraph they took only days. The first transcontinental telegraph cable was completed in 1861, which meant that news could travel across 3000 miles almost instantly. Morse Code was invented by Samuel Morse and his associate for use with the telegraph, but I don't think it was used for anything else, at first.

3 a) Oregon, like Texas, was once its own country (though significantly less organized). Initially, it didn't technically belong to any country, though it was settled by people from Britain, France, Russia, and Spain. The settlers there started their own provisional government in 1843, which pissed off the Brits, who thought it should belong to them. For awhile, everyone thought there was going to be a third war between the Brits and the Americans. But then both sides agreed to the Oregon Treaty of 1846, which declared everything above the 49th parallel to be British Columbia (Canada), and everything below the 49th parallel to be Oregon Territory (property of the US).

b) Things work very slowly in our government, and also I think one of my sources rounded to the next year. In 1843, US President Tyler negotiated with the Republic of Texas to get them annexed, but the treaty was shot down by the US Senate in June 1844. In November 1844, President Tyler worked together with President-Elect Polk to come up with a joint resolution that would annex the Republic of Texas and Oregon Country, which passed in Congress in February 1845. (I'm not sure why this one passed when the previous treaty did not. Perhaps the wording was different, or the addition of Oregon Country changed people's minds? Who knows.) The joint resolution was presented to the Texas Congress, who agreed in July 1845. The citizens of Texas approved the annexation, and a state constitution, in October 1845. Then-President Polk signed off on the whole thing on Dec 29, 1845.

c) The US has two major political parties (though their names and platforms have changed greatly over time), and each party nominates their own candidate at a convention, and the two candidates appear on the ballot for the general election. (Nowadays the parties also have primary elections to determine who they will nominate, but that comes much later). I know that Polk was not expecting to get the nomination of the Democratic Party, but I have no idea why Martin Van Buren was expected to be nominated. He was president from 1837–1841 and was wildly unpopular. They called him "Martin Van Ruin". He also opposed the annexation of Texas.
(Polk ends up winning the presidency, and is a fairly successful president.)

I heard a commentator say today that there's a reason that the US presidents between Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln were mostly non-entities. The country kept looking for someone who was wishy-washy on slavery (neither abolitionist nor pro-slavery) and got a bunch of people who were mostly wishy-washy in general.

Van Buren was well-liked in New York, which was the most populous state at the time. He actually got a majority vote of delegates at the convention (so he must have been liked elsewhere). However, at that time, you needed a super-majority (3/4) of the convention to be nominated, so they compromised on Polk. (Nominating conventions for most of our history have been more like the enclave of cardinals voting for a pope, than like television extravaganzas to celebrate the nominee elected in the primaries.)

We don't always have just two parties. In 1848 Van Buren will be back, running on the Free Soil ticket.

Chapter 6

Summer 1844

Orry travels home. On his way he encounters a crashed carriage with a young woman inside. After a scare with a poisonous snake she introduces herself as Madeline Fabray of New Orleans, traveling to the Resolute plantation. Orry falls instantly in love, but Madeline is on her way to marry the owner of Resolute plantation: Justin LaMotte, who Orry (and his family) dislike greatly.

Clarissa, Cooper, Orry, and Cousin Charles go to the wedding of Madeline and Justin. Cooper notices that Madeline likes Orry too and feels guilty about it. We also learn that Justin LaMotte treats his horses better than his slaves – abuse and cruelty are commonplace on his plantation – and that he intends to break Madeline, who is intelligent and speaks her opinion in public (even on matters ordinarily reserved for gentlemen, like politics).

Cousin Charles gets into a fight with some bullies. Orry pulls him off and lectures him on the way home. Cooper stands up for Charles. Both Cooper and Clarissa notice that Charles is hurt by the constant put-downs of everyone, telling him that he will amount to nothing, but the rest of the family remain ignorant and are of the same opinion.

On her wedding night, Madeline realizes just what kind of man she married, but now it is too late. She pushes away all thoughts of Orry, because for better or worse she is now a married woman.

Questions Chapter 6

1. At the site of the crashed carriage, one of the trunks has sprung open and garments lavishly decorated with lace can be seen. This leads to Orry concluding that the passengers are not poor. But doesn’t the fact that they are travelling by carriage (which is described as fairly luxury) tell him that?

2. Madeline and her deceased mother are both Creole, of which the definition is given as ‘a New Orleans born child of European parents. So they are still white people. Do they have the same standing as other white people? Because from some of the characters I got the idea that Creole was used as a not-so-nice word.

************

Also, let me take a moment to thank you, aulsmith, for the extra info you provide, and norabelle for all the great answers you've given me so far. I know I'm setting a bit of a brutal pace and that I had a lot of questions, especially in the earlier chapters, that are not so easy to explain. I would not have made it this far into the book without your help!

Chapter 6

1) Yes, riding in a carriage does signify money, but people who had a small amount of money would rent or borrow a carriage for one journey. It's the same difference now between riding in a taxi and having one's own limousine and driver. Both mean you have money to spare, but there's a big difference in how much. Owning a lot of elaborate, fancy, expensive clothes would be a much better measure of how rich someone was. Clothing and lace were way more expensive back then, especially the gaudy gowns of Southern belles. And there was no renting.

2) "Creole" is a term that has been used to describe many different groups of people. "French Creole" was used to differentiate the people who were born in Louisiana from the settlers. It was meant to apply only to people of European descent, but sometimes you'll also see the term "colored Creole" or "Creole slave" used to differentiate between slaves imported from Africa and the slaves (or free black people) that were born in the colonies. Once the population had shifted to mostly native-born, the meaning of "creole" also shifted. Louisiana developed a fairly unique (in the US) population of mixed-race people who could trace their ancestry in Louisiana back a very long time, and "Louisiana Creole" became a term used to describe them. It's possible that Madeline and her mother were the first kind of Creole and the insults were the other, or that the insults were meant to imply someone had lived in rural Louisiana too long (and thus lacked high-society skills and connnections). It depends on the context, I think.

*******************

You're so welcome. I'm having a lot of fun.

Just a note: Wikipedia, which is one of my sources for answering your questions, is going to be down all day tomorrow as part of a protest. So I will be less helpful than usual, but I'll make sure to tie up all the loose ends from your questions when it comes back up.

Ch 6, q 1) Ah, that makes sense. The lace made him certain they were rich, while the carriage perhaps only made him suspect.

Ch 6, q 2) Madeline and her mother definitely were the first type of Creole. And I think considering the context the insults were definitely meant to imply Madeline had lived in rural Louisiana too long.

It’s fine if the answers are a little late. As you can see in the message below I’ve only got the one question for chapter 7. I think I’m getting the hang of this whole time period. Well, that or it’s just because the chapters are fairly short at the moment and not bringing up anything you haven’t already explained ;).

Chapter 7

Autumn 1844 – June 1845

Orry gets back to the Academy, lovesick over Madeline. George hopes his friend won’t pine over a married woman forever, while Orry tries to distract himself by trying to improve his schoolwork. But no matter how hard he tries, he doesn’t rise in the ranks.

Bent causes a plebe to become injured due to excessive discipline. He lies to save himself from punishment – a very grave matter – and George, Orry, and some of their friends decide to do something about him.

There are presidential elections and people against annexation of Texas warn that if the pro-annexation side wins it could mean the first war in 30 years. In the end, Polk, pro-annexation, wins the election. Texas is annexed and war with Mexico is brewing.

George, Orry and compatriots plan to have an Army Lieutenant catch Bent with a prostitute. It works, but the prostitute accidentally reveals that George is involved in the set-up, and Bent correctly realizes this means Orry was involved as well. Bent is dismissed, but in December the dismissal is overturned by some of Bent’s family friends in Washington. His chances at a high position right from the start after graduation are gone though, despite his high grades. He ends up in the infantry, and on graduation day he threatens George and Orry, telling them that he will be very high placed one day and that they will feel the consequence of standing in his way then.

Questions Chapter 7

1. About the brewing war this is said: It would be the first war to test West Point’s programs and West Point’s graduates, as they hadn’t been tested since the era of Sylvanus Thayer. Who is Sylvanus Thayer and what is meant with his era?

Chapter 7

1) Sylvanus Thayer was one of the greatest superintendents of West Point. He graduated from Dartmouth College, and then went to West Point, graduating in 1808. He served in the War of 1812, and then went on a tour of the great military academies of Europe before returning to the US to become superintendent of West Point in 1817. He used what he had learned in Europe to make West Point one of the greatest engineering programs in the country. He is called "the father of the Military Academy" (per the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History website). He resigned in 1833, but continued to work for the Corps of Engineers.

Ch 7, q 1) So, if 1817-1833 us the era of Sylvanus Thayer, and they haven't been tested since, does that mean graduates from his time as a superintendent have been tested while he was superintendent? Because that's how it reads to me.

Chapter 8

Summer 1845 – September 1846

George is once again promoted, this time to cadet lieutenant. Of all the first classmen, Orry is the only one not given a rank.

December 29 1845 Texas officially joins the Union as the 28th state. War with Mexico is brewing. George is not overjoyed at the idea of war, he just wants to serve out his four years without getting shot at too often. Orry on the other hand was thrilled at possibility of seeing action after graduation. On the 12th of May 1846, before they even graduate, war with Mexico officially breaks out.

Orry is going to be posted to the Eight Infantry. Despite being able to do better George decides to follow Orry into the infantry and through intervention from George’s father (on his son’s request) he is posted to the Eight Infantry as well. Orry remains blissfully unaware that George asked his father to arrange them being posted together.

After graduation they both head for home. Orry makes George promise to visit Mont Royal (his family’s plantation) before their leave ends, so they can travel to their posting together.

We learn that George has few things he takes serious or that touch his emotions, but the iron trade is where his heart lays. We also learn that George is neither pro or con slavery, but the other Hazards definitely believe slavery to be wrong.

When George arrives at Mont Royal, he notices Ashton’s beauty, although she is far too young for him. He also sees slavery in practice for the first time and witnesses a fight between Tiller Main and Cooper. Cooper is pro-South, but does have his questions about slavery, which brings him at odds with his father. George is sad to see the rift in the Main household, that he knows is reflecting the growing rift in the country.

Questions Chapter 8

1. Confronting danger on some distant battlefield is called seeing the elephant. This is said in relation to the possibility that the cadets might see some real action when they graduate, when the war with Mexico is brewing but not yet a reality. Why is it called ‘seeing the elephant’?

FYI - Chapter 1 question about the term Yankee...

Wikipedia states: The origin of Yankee has been the subject of much debate, but the most likely source is the Dutch name Janke, meaning "little Jan" or "little John," a nickname that dates back to the 1680s. Perhaps because it was used as the name of pirates, the name Yankee came to be used as a term of contempt. It was used this way in the 1750s by General James Wolfe, the British general who secured British domination of North America by defeating the French at Quebec. The name may have been applied to New Englanders as an extension of an original use referring to Dutch settlers living along the Hudson River. Whatever the reason, Yankee is first recorded in 1765 as a name for an inhabitant of New England. The first recorded use of the term by the British to refer to Americans in general appears in the 1780s, in a letter by Lord Horatio Nelson, no less. Around the same time it began to be abbreviated to Yank. During the American Revolution, American soldiers adopted this term of derision as a term of national pride. The derisive use nonetheless remained alive and even intensified in the South during the Civil War, when it referred not to all Americans but to those loyal to the Union.

Ch7 Q1) I think they meant that the graduates of West Point had not been tested (with a war) since the time that Thayer was tested in the War of 1812. But now there was going to be another war, which would test those who had graduated from West Point since the War of 1812 ended.

Chapter 8

1) "Seeing the elephant" is a phrase used during the Mexican-American War, the Civil War, and Westward Expansion that just means a feeling of overwhelming emotion. As if your emotion was the size of an elephant, and it was looking you in the face.

45> cyderry, thanks for the extra info! How funny that the term seems to have a Dutch origin, considering I'm Dutch :D.

46>

Ch7, Q1) Ah, that makes sense

47>

Ch8, Q1) Ah, that makes sense. Although now I'm wondering if it was used before the Mexican-American War (since the cadets already call it 'seeing the elephant' before there even is a Mexican-American War), or if the author used the term 'incorrectly dated'.

>48 Samantha_kathy:
Ch8 Q1) It was most likely used before then as well, it's just famously used during the events I listed. Those events were probably especially emotional ;-)

Ugh, I have been so busy I’ve had a hard time finding time to read. Well, I can read in the train during my commute, but that doesn’t really give me the possibility of making notes and such, so it’s not so good for reading North and South. But, I finally managed to read another chapter, here are the questions I have.

Also, as an aside, I use the word Negro here. I don’t honestly know if this word has a stigma attached to it nowadays, but it’s the word used in the book so I have used that. I hope nobody takes offense at it.

Chapter 9

September 1846

The Mains host a large picnic. There is talk of secession of Southern states by several people, including the South Carolina senator John Calhoun. Madeline and her husband Justin are there as well. Orry witnesses Justin threatening Madeline to behave or else. He confesses his love for her and they agree to meet the next day.

Priam – a slave of the Main family – unjustly gets into trouble and is cat hauled. The screaming can be heard all the way in the main house. It’s the first time George realizes the realities of slavery and he’s deeply disturbed. Cooper confronts his father on the punishment and predicts the South will fall to ruin because of the inhuman idea that people are property. He’s also thinking of leaving the plantation. Orry is embarrassed that George had to witness the fight, but also illogically angry with his friend.

We learn that Madeline’s father has died, but just before he told her that she has Negro blood – her mother was one-quarter Negro. Orry meets Madeline, they kiss and confess their love for each other, but know they cannot be together.

Questions Chapter 9

1. It seems that there are class differences even among the slaves. Some of the slaves hated the necessity of mixing with slaves of inferior station – this from the Senator’s house slave in relation to the Main’s house slaves – and it was also said that house slave is a vastly superior position to that of common field hand. Some of the slaves were also rather cruel to each other. I really don’t understand this, if they were all slaves, why such divisions among themselves?

2. Another thing I noticed among the slaves is that they called themselves (well, others of their own race) ‘niggers’. This was not meant as an insult, just a form of address. Did it not have the stigma it has now back then?

3. In relation to Madeline’s ancestry: she’s called an octoroon and it is said that if this became public knowledge up North it would hamper her social standing. Also, she is very afraid it will become public now because in the South even one drop of Negro blood would make you no better than the blackest of slave. So clearly there are differences between the states on how Negro ancestry is counted against you, can you tell me a bit about that? Were there rules on when you were considered ‘white’? What did the law say on this and was it different from social ideas?

Chapter 9

1) The divisions between classes of slaves were encouraged by the owners, to keep slaves from working together to revolt. The closer to the owners that the slaves worked (and the richer the owners), the more "benefits" they got (food, clothing, shelter, education, better treatment, etc). House-slaves who had worked for the same family for many generations might even be treated close to family. To wildly generalize, the field-slaves resented the house-slaves for getting better treatment, and the house-slaves saw the field-slaves as dirty and uneducated.

2) "Nigger" used to be a common word used by all races to describe black people, not necessarily as an insult. (It derives from "Negro") The reason that the word "nigger" has fallen out of use now is that it is viewed as a throwback to the time of slavery, in which racism was a part of society.

3) Even though the majority of Northerners did not support slavery, there was still a lot of institutional racism throughout the entire country. Black people were seen as inferior to white people pretty much everywhere, even if not inferior enough to be enslaved. The basic rule was: as long as a person looked white, and no one said otherwise, they are white. If a person looks too dark, or there are rumors of Black ancestors, they are seen as unpure and shunned. The major exception was the New Orleans area, as I discussed before, which was a hotbed of Latin-American, French, and Spanish culture and artists. They were much more tolerant of mixing races, and even embraced it. I can go on and on about the social standards of race at the time, but I can't find much about pre-Civil War laws relating to the definition of white and black except for the following, from Wikipedia:
For instance, in 1822 Virginia law stated that to be defined as "mulatto" (that is, multi-racial), a person had to have at least one-quarter (equivalent to one grandparent) African ancestry.
Most of the laws about race definitions came around the 1920s.

Hi *waves*

Just a little note to let you know that I've been pretty busy, so I wasn't able to read much. And then I had to return the book to the library - which was very annoying. Lesson learned: do not do a tutored read with a book you don't own! So I've ordered my own copy and expect it to come in sometime next week. I'll be back with questions then :D.

Okay, take your time!

My copy arrived about two weeks ago, but I've been run ragged at work. I managed to avoid the flu that's going around, but not the fatigue that comes with it, it seems. But, I finally had a chance to read some more, so here's chapter 10! I hope you hadn't given up on me yet!

Chapter 10

Summer 1846 - Autumn 1846

Orry and Georgy talk about slavery and the recent happenings with Priam. George tells Orry it has made him anti-slavery and the boys have a verbal fight. George knows Orry was troubled about something else when they argued, but the quarrel has disturbed him. It has treatened their friendship. They make up, but the memory of their quarrel and its cause remain with both of them.

They ship out and strand in Texas for awhile. At a party, George meets Constance Flynn. For the first time in his life George is not so confident with a woman - he is in love. When the time comes for the boys to move on to the front of the war, they agree to write to each other and they confess their love.

Questions Chapter 10

1. In September General Taylor had invested and captured Monterrey. What does invested mean?

2. It is said there was suspicion of Catholics in the nation. Why were Catholics met with suspicion?

I can answer 2: They were the current wave of immigrants, who are always looked on with suspicion in the US. One of the stereotypes that fed the suspicion was that since they owed allegiance to the Pope, they could never be trusted in a democracy. This was still a problem in the 1960s when Kennedy ran for President.

It's been a holiday week over here. I suspect norabelle is away and will be back shortly.

My apologies on the delay, it's been a crazy week at work and my house.

Chapter 10

1) To Invest: To surround with troops or ships; besiege (a usage not seen much anymore)

2) Not much more to add to what aulsmith said, except that in the mid 1840s most Catholic immigrants to the United States were Irish, due to the potato famine of 1845-1852. Almost all of the Irish that fled Ireland at that point did so because they were extremely poor, which could explain why they were seen as second-class citizens upon settling in the US. There were not many Catholics in the US before then.

55> Thanks for the answer! That does explain a lot.

56> No apologies necessary. As you can see from my own late reply, I'm very busy myself and not as prompt as I would like.

1) Used in that way, it makes sense. I kept puzzling over what it could mean, even though I understood the general sense of the sentence.

Chapter 11

March 1847 – April 1847

George and Orry have spent six months in Mexico and have not seen any real action yet. But now they are about to invade and then drive inland to Mexico City. The invasion goes without a hitch and they besiege Vera Cruz. We learn that Orry still wants an army career, but the glamour of the profession is gone in the face of the reality of army life. On the other hand, George misses Constance a lot despite writing to her frequently. His longing to be with her have filled him with a powerful hatred of this war.

A few days before Vera Cruz surrenders Orry meets Bent again, now a Captain, who makes veiled threats to him and George. Orry’s own Captain says Bent does not have a good reputation – he’s an ambitious ladder climber willing to go over corpses.

In April they march towards the capital. Orry shows himself a good officer, taking care of his men. He also learns of a scandal involving ‘Butcher’Bent, where he killed a few of his own men when they tried to take cover from heavy fire. There’s no prove though. Later, George saves one of his men and visits him in the infirmary where he meets another patient, Sergeant Lennard Arnesen. Arnesen tells George that Bent once again sacrificed his men’s life needlessly to save his own and plans to bring up charges. First George, then Orry as well, promise to testify against Bent about his history and character. But before charges can be brought up Arnesen dies and George’s Captain makes it very clear he will not hear of another word against Bent – West Point protects their own.

Chapter 11 Questions

1. Even in peacetime, immigrants made up a large percentage of the country’s military manpower. Did the army have some sort of advantage for immigrants that so many joined? Or was it more a matter of not being able to find another job?

2. The men groused about being sent ashore burdened with haversacks and greatcoats. What are haversacks and greatcoats?

3. The victory had cost fewer than a hundred American lives. George and Orry were shocked to learn that back home, politicians and a certain segment of the public were unhappy the casualties had been so light. “They calculate the importance of the victory by the size of the butcher’s bill” was the way George put it. Could you shed some light on this thinking? I mean, you’d expect politicians and especially the public to be glad there were so few American casualties, not the other way around.

Chapter 11

1) Yep, they just had trouble finding other jobs. They also had fewer ties to any particular place in the US, so they were more willing to spend their lives marching around the country.

2) A haversack is like a big purse or messenger bag. You put a lot of stuff in it (food and supplies, in the case of the military), and there is a flap that folds over the top and fastens with a buckle. It is then carried with one strap that goes across the body.
Greatcoats are large, heavy, wool overcoats. In the military, they have lots of buttons and pins on them which make s them even heavier.

3) Nowadays, wars are almost never fought hand-to-hand, so one side can strike large blows to the other without losing any lives. Back then, however, it was almost all hand-to-hand combat, so the number of American lives lost was directly proportional to the amount of actual fighting done. The politicians, etc. were probably so anxious for there to be lots of fighting so that the United States could prove that it was strong and tough and could compete with other countries. (And the fact that the politicians weren't at risk of being killed themselves)

3) so the number of American lives lost was directly proportional to the amount of actual fighting done. The politicians, etc. were probably so anxious for there to be lots of fighting so that the United States could prove that it was strong and tough and could compete with other countries.

Hmm, I'd never looked at it like that. Makes a lot more sense that way though.

Chapter 12

August 1847 – October 1847

Orry and George are in a heavy battle close to the Mexican capital. During the battle, they meet up with Bent and get sent on what amounts to a suicide mission. Orry does a heroic charge of some guerillas, killing them against all odds, but then a shell hits. George finds Orry bleeding to death, part of his arm blown off. He saves Orry’s life, but the loss of his arm means Orry will get a medical discharge, despite the promotion he got out of his actions. Orry is very depressed – he never had a chance with Madeline and now the only career he ever wanted is dead before it started.

In October, Mexico City has surrendered. Generally speaking, West Point officers have done good – even Bent is considered a hero, much as it galls George. Then George learns his father died, and his older brother Stanley begs him in a letter to come home, as the company is too large to be led by one man. Due to Stanley interfering on George’s behalf with a senator, George gets discharged from the military to go home. George doesn’t mind going home, but he does mind the way it was achieved.

Chapter 12 Questions

1. Now that Orry has gotten a medical discharge, will he get some sort of pension or support from the military? If yes, would he still have gotten that if he’d not been an officer? And is it enough to live off?

Chapter 12

1. Yes, Orry would definitely get a pension since he was wounded in battle. I believe the law at the time was that disabled veterans received half of the salary they made while in service.

That's actually better than I expected - and also why the promotion was given despite the immediate discharge. A higher rank would hold a higher salary, and thus a higher pension.

Just wanted to say I've been enjoying following this thread and finally got around to reading North and South myself. Thanks for the recommendation, Samantha and Nora!

Chapter 13

October 1847

George travels home by way of Corpus Christi, so he can ask Constance Flynn to marry him. He asks her father for permission first, getting it by lying that his family will accept Constance with open arms. Her father also asks George to hold the wedding up North. Constance herself happily accepts George’s marriage proposal. George wants Orry to stand up with him, but isn’t sure his friend will. He’s worried about Orry’s state of mind and resolves to stop at Mont Royal on the way home to check up on him.

No questions for this chapter.

Chapter 14

October 1847

George visits Mont Royal. Cousin Charles Main seems to have changed – he’s harder and his attitude towards the slaves seems to have changed as well. Orry’s looking bad and working himself into exhaustion, despite being one-armed. Orry’s older brother is poised to leave for Charleston, where he will run a little cotton packet company, in order to get away from his father, as their arguments have not lessened at all. Orry agrees to stand up with George at his wedding, although he doesn’t sound very enthusiastic about it.

The next day, George is set to leave, not wanting to stay any longer as tensions are high in the house. But when morning comes, it becomes apparent that Priam, one of the slaves, has run away. The Main’s mount an armed patrol to capture him, and George is aghast that Orry agrees with that so readily. On the way to the train station, George and Orry see Priam trying to get into a North-bound train. Orry pulls him out and intends to take him back to Mont Royal where he will be crippled or, more likely, killed. George asks Orry to let Priam go – invoking their friendship – and Orry reluctantly does. But he also makes it clear that if George ever interferes in Southern matters again their friendship is over. Just before George leaves with his train, Orry does agree again to stand up with George, slightly more enthusiastic than the first time.

Questions Chapter 14

1. There’s mention of the American Anti-Slavery Society of New York. I’m assuming that wasn’t the only anti-slavery group. Were they in any way successful in their campaign to abolish slavery before the war started?

Chapter 14

1) The American Anti-Slavery Society was by far the main anti-slavery group, with about 2,000 branches and 200,000 members. Most of the prominent anti-slavery politicians and public figures of the time were members. It was responsible for the founding of the Free-Soil political party and the Republican political party, both of which were founded on the platform of ending slavery.

Around 1839, the national-level of the society began to split due to ideological differences. The extreme side supported "immediate abolition", in which slavery in a given region is completely abolished, sometimes used violence to attain their goals, and believed that the US Constitution was pro-slavery and thus should be rejected. The more moderate side, which had much more support from everyday people, supported "gradual abolition", which would stop the spread of slavery by stopping the slave trade, buying the freedom of individual slaves, etc.

At this point, slavery-related laws were all in the hands of the state governments. Most of the northern, western, and midwestern states had already abolished slavery within their borders, no doubt with help from the American Anti-Slavery Society.

Samantha_kathy,

I'm going to be on vacation in Belgium for a little over a week, starting tomorrow. Though I will be much, much closer to you, I don't think I'll have much opportunity to use the internet. But keep posting any questions you might have and I'll get to them as soon as I can (or some lurkers can help me out).

I won't have time to read more until the weekend anyway, so no problem! And with how slow I'm being with reading this book I don't have room to complain anyway :D.

Have fun in Belgium!