Discussion Thread: Emma

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Discussion Thread: Emma

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1christina_reads
ag. 15, 2015, 11:52 am

Welcome to the discussion thread for Emma! Jane Austen called Emma "a heroine whom no one but myself will much like." Do you agree or disagree? Personally, I love Emma as a character! She's probably Austen's most flawed heroine, but that makes her one of the most relatable to me. But I can certainly see how she could drive some readers nuts! What did you think of her -- and of the book in general? Discuss below (and remember, there will be spoilers)!

2Nickelini
ag. 15, 2015, 12:50 pm

Emma was my first Austen. It took me several years to get through and I didn't like it at all. One day I will reread it.

3streamsong
ag. 15, 2015, 2:32 pm

This is my first time through most of the Austen's, having previously read only Pride & Prejudice and Persuasion. I just finished listening to the audio of Emma as well as reading Robert Rodi's humorous take on it in Bitch In a Bonnet: Reclaiming Jane Austen From the Stiffs, the Snobs, the Simps and the Saps (Volume 2) - whew, world's longest touchstone!

Emma as a heroine: I neither like nor dislike her. Meeting someone like her in real life, I could be polite but probably never good friends.I'm afraid I'm not overly fond of any of the women in this one.

However, the character I really like is Mr Knightley. Straight forward, direct, but also kind and very empathetic. How much older is he than Emma? She said she had been calling him 'Mr. Knightley' since she first learned to talk, so I'm thinking at least twenty years?

Forget all those 'I Heart Darcy' teeshirts - I much prefer Knightley!

4japaul22
ag. 15, 2015, 8:26 pm

I'm about 2/3 of the way through this but I think it's the 5th time I've read it so no spoiler worries! Emma was the first Austen book I read. I read it for my English class in senior year of high school and fell in love.

I really like Emma as a character. Yes, she makes mistakes and is sort of stuck up, but she's also honest and well-meaning. The way she deals with her father alone shows me that she is a good person at heart. He couldn't be easy for most people to be patient with and she is nothing but caring and patient towards him. I also think it's important that even though she does her share of toying with other people's lives, she is also being toyed with by Frank Churchill throughout the book. Luckily, it doesn't end up effecting her deeply, but it well could have.

Sometimes when I've read this book I've been disturbed by the age difference between Emma and Mr. Knightley (I believe it is a 16 year difference. She is 21 and he is 37.), but this time it didn't bother me. I keep noticing instances when Emma shows that she already cares deeply about Mr. Knightley, as more than a friend or brother-in-law. When I have more time I'll post some examples. I've also been wondering this time just how soon Knightley himself realizes that he loves Emma. Is Frank coming to town the catalyst for him to be able to name his love to himself, or did he know all along, just waiting patiently for Emma to grow older and hopefully love him as well?

I'm also struck by the humor in this book. I love the scene when Miss Bates and Knightley talk through the window is really funny. I find a lot of Knightley's dry observations funny. I also liked a conversation between Mrs. Elton and Mr. Weston where they just take turns talking about what is most important to themselves; she about herself and he about Frank coming.

5Nickelini
Editat: ag. 15, 2015, 9:25 pm

>4 japaul22: Yes, she makes mistakes and is sort of stuck up, but she's also honest and well-meaning. The way she deals with her father alone shows me that she is a good person at heart.

I read Emma before I understood the beauty of Austen, but I did manage to get that out of it, and I agree. However, the age difference between Emma and Mr Knightley went right over my head. So many details, and I didn't notice all of them! (Okay, I didn't think the details were that important, so didn't notice most of them. JA fail). Anyway, I didn't get why she wasn't matched up with him way earlier and had I noticed that detail it may have made it clearer. I saw the Gwyneth Paltrow movie around the same time, and didn't notice the age difference either (I checked and the actors are 11 yrs apart). That actually makes the story more interesting to me (I keep putting off a reread). I grew up in the late 70s and early 80s and I find younger people now freak out about age differences way more than we did (funny enough, some of these young women who were freaking out at me in their late teens started dating much older men in their early 20s. Hmmmm.)

I read it for my English class in senior year of high school and fell in love.

Where did you go to school? I find it amazing that you were assigned this book. I take it this wasn't the English course that everyone had to take? In my experience, the books assigned in high school are thin. As an adult I was stunned to realize how few pages were in The Old Man and the Sea and Of Mice and Men. They were so painfully long! And I loved to read. My daughters (age 15 and 18) have similarly thin high school reading assignments (I went to a middle class public school, my daughters go to a more academically focused parochial school).

6japaul22
ag. 16, 2015, 6:19 am

>5 Nickelini: Where did you go to school? I find it amazing that you were assigned this book. I take it this wasn't the English course that everyone had to take? In my experience, the books assigned in high school are thin. As an adult I was stunned to realize how few pages were in The Old Man and the Sea and Of Mice and Men. They were so painfully long! And I loved to read. My daughters (age 15 and 18) have similarly thin high school reading assignments (I went to a middle class public school, my daughters go to a more academically focused parochial school).

I went to school in the U.S. at a public school in the Chicago suburbs. Emma was on a list on books that we could choose from for our final writing project senior year. We read lots of thick books though. I was always in the Honors level (highest out of 3 levels), but it wasn't a small group - always 20-30 kids. Some big books I remember reading were David Copperfield freshman year (that was a stretch), Grapes of Wrath and Sound and the Fury junior year. I'm pretty sure that even in the Honors class there were a lot of students who never actually read the whole book, just got by with following the class discussion or reading Cliff Notes.

7japaul22
Editat: ag. 16, 2015, 7:41 am

>4 japaul22: My favorite example of Emma showing how much she cares for Knightley without realizing it is when she and Harriet are burning the objects that Harriet has kept to remind her of Mr. Elton. They are discussing the pencil and Emma's only memory of the incident is where Mr. Knightley was standing. Harriet doesn't remember that at all, only where Mr. Elton was sitting. After you know where the story goes, it's very telling, but I'm sure I missed it on my first couple reads of this book.

She also subtly reveals her feelings at the dance given by the Westons.

Another theme I noticed was Emma's isolation. Even compared to other Austen novels, she has a very small circle of families that she interacts with and very limited female interaction. It's no wonder she takes to Harriet and that she interferes. Really, she needs something to do! She also never leaves home. There are constant references to how she's never left Highbury. Even within Highbury she seems to not get around much. When they go to Donwell Abbey she says she hasn't been there in years! And she had never been to the nearby Box Hill!

8christina_reads
ag. 18, 2015, 12:43 pm

>3 streamsong: I'll always be Team Darcy, but I do love Mr. Knightley too! :) However, I've seen a lot of criticism of his character as well, since he spends most of the book lecturing Emma. So I'm curious if anyone thought he was patronizing or rude.

>4 japaul22: That's a really good point about Emma's relationship to her father. Despite her many flaws, she always does treat her father with tenderness and care -- something I don't know if I'd be able to do!

>7 japaul22: YES! I love all the subtle little hints that Emma is actually in love with Mr. Knightley long before she realizes it! My favorite example is just after she meets Mrs. Elton for the first time and starts ranting about how obnoxious she is. The first thing out of Emma's mouth is, "Absolutely insufferable! Knightley! I could not have believed it. Knightley! never seen him in her life before, and call him Knightley! and discover that he is a gentleman!" Then, MUCH farther down in the paragraph, she thinks of Frank Churchill and believes that this is a sign of her love for him: "Ah! there I am thinking of him directly. Always the first person to be thought of!" But of course, in reality, Mr. Knightley is always the first person to be thought of!

9librivendola
Editat: ag. 24, 2015, 8:50 am

http://lettureedintorni.blogspot.it/2015/08/emma-jane-austen.html

Here's my review. This was my second reading of Emma and I totally changed my mind.

(It's in italian but you can try google translator)

10Chrischi_HH
ag. 24, 2015, 2:43 pm

I have also finished Emma a few days ago. I had previously seen a few Jane Austen movies (not Emma though), and now finally got to read one of her novels. It is a great book with a nice storyline, perfectly developed characters, some humour, and in general a very precise and vivid language. But just as Jane Austen expected, I did not really like the character of Emma. I wouldn't say I disliked her - she had quite a few positive traits - but I found her annoying. That was a drawback for me and prevents me from giving more than 3.5 stars.

11christina_reads
ag. 24, 2015, 3:24 pm

>9 librivendola: I'm so glad you enjoyed Emma more the second time around!

>10 Chrischi_HH: I totally understand that view of Emma. I think the reason I like her so much is because her flaws make her more relatable to me. Like, I've never tried to meddle in my friends' romantic lives, but I've definitely misread social cues that might have been very obvious to other people! And I love Emma's mixture of admiration and resentment towards Jane Fairfax, especially when she feels compelled to practice the pianoforte after hearing Jane's superior performance.

12japaul22
ag. 25, 2015, 11:40 am

I'm in the "I like Emma" camp, but I also get not liking. And when I really think about it, it isn't as if I'd want to be friends with her, but I like how her character makes the book great. If she wasn't interfering and a bit pretentious it would be a pretty boring book. I also usually like a flawed character as long as I think he/she is good at heart.

13kac522
ag. 25, 2015, 3:58 pm

I have to say that when I first read Emma I didn't like it much, and it was a very slow read for me, until about 2/3 through. However, after seeing a couple of film versions, I read it again, and I liked the book (and Emma) a little better. Still not my favorite, but it does have some very funny bits (love poor Mr. Woodhouse).

14christina_reads
ag. 28, 2015, 5:03 pm

One thing I really enjoy in this book is that Mrs. Elton provides a foil for Emma. Emma perceives Mrs. Elton as being completely unlike herself -- vulgar, pretentious, and fundamentally unkind. But there also some very telling similarities between them, I think. Emma condemns Mrs. Elton for her controlling behavior with Jane Fairfax, yet Emma is just as determined to run Harriet's life (at least initially). Emma finds Mrs. Elton a total snob, but Emma herself is just as class-conscious, looking down upon the respectable Robert Martin because he's not a "gentleman." Of course, Emma is a much more sympathetic character than Mrs. Elton (at least in my opinion), but it is interesting how Emma's disgust with Mrs. Elton actually reveals her own flaws as well.

15Nickelini
set. 1, 2015, 5:54 pm

Just by fluke, I am listening to the audio book of the Alexander McCall-Smith retelling of Emma. I'm on chapter 6 or so, and thus far the story has been chiefly about Mr Woodhouse.

16christina_reads
set. 1, 2015, 7:54 pm

>15 Nickelini: Wow, really? In the original book, he's basically just there for comic relief. I'd be interested to know how his character is updated in the retelling!

17japaul22
set. 1, 2015, 8:44 pm

>14 christina_reads: That's an insightful character comparison.

I wondered about the gradations of social class in this book. Some are obvious, but between Mr. Knightley, Mr. Woodhouse, Mr. Weston, and the Coles, things are not so clear to me. None of these people are aristocracy, so they all must have made their money through some sort of business at one point or another. Is the thinking just that if they've had their money and owned their land/homes longer then they are higher class? Or does it matter how they made money? Also, would a random Lord, Duke, etc. think these families in the same hierarchy or lump them all together as the wealthy but untitled class?

I also thought a lot about Jane Fairfax this time. She is so revered in the book (by everyone except Emma) but she makes some questionable decisions not the least of which is falling in love with the charming but sort of vapid and unreliable Frank Churchill. It seems a bit out of character, or at least out of the other characters' perception of her, for her to fall in love with someone like Frank.

>15 Nickelini: I'm slightly interested in reading this, but I'll wait to see what you think!

18Nickelini
set. 1, 2015, 9:17 pm

>16 christina_reads:, >17 japaul22: I will post a summary of my thoughts when I finish it.

19christina_reads
set. 2, 2015, 9:38 am

>17 japaul22: Interesting question regarding social class! These are my impressions based on the book (but if someone else knows more, please do correct me!):

Mr. Knightley and Mr. Woodhouse are at the top of the food chain because they've both owned extensive property in Highbury for a really long time. Mr. Knightley's house is a former abbey, so it was probably given to his family by Henry VIII during the English Reformation. And Emma notes at one point that the Woodhouses are a younger branch of an ancient family that has been in the area for many generations.

Mr. Weston is of a slightly lower social class because he didn't inherit any property from his father. Rather, the book tells us that he was in the army for a while and married "above him" (into the Churchill clan). He is eventually able to purchase Randalls and thus become a member of the landed gentry, but he wasn't born to it like the Woodhouses and Knightleys were.

The Coles are lower still because they are still engaged in "trade," but they're wealthy enough that they are able to socialize with their superiors to some extent.

20christina_reads
set. 2, 2015, 9:51 am

>17 japaul22: Also, I'm so fascinated by the Jane Fairfax/Frank Churchill romance! As you say, they don't seem to be a particularly compatible couple. But what's interesting to me is that almost the entire story takes place off-page. We hear a little bit about it in Frank's explanatory letter, but that's about it. And when you think about it, isn't Jane Fairfax the kind of character you would expect to be the heroine of a novel? She's an orphan brought up in luxury but destined to work as a governess; she's beautiful, smart, and accomplished; she has a whirlwind romance with Frank, but they're star-crossed lovers because his family would disapprove of their marriage. That seems like a very novelistic plot -- especially compared to the actual plot of Emma, which is mostly about Emma's interior life, and in which the most dramatic event is an insult at a picnic. I just love the fact that Austen subverted expectations by writing a book about Emma (seemingly the girl who has everything) instead of Jane (seemingly the girl with the more eventful life story).

21mathgirl40
set. 3, 2015, 8:32 pm

This is the review I just posted on my thread (so apologies for anyone reading it twice):

I'm impressed by Austen's skill in manipulating my feelings about Emma. She starts off as a rather unlikable character. She's snobbish, manipulative, insensitive and proud at the start, and indeed, she still has all of these characteristics, to some extent, by the end of the novel. Yet, I couldn't help liking Emma more and more as the novel progressed. To me, Emma is one of the most realistic characters from Austen's works, having a combination of flaws and good qualities. She occasionally shows conflicting and even hypocritical behaviour, like most of us in real life.

Emma is not the only great character in this novel. Mr. Knightley and Mr. Woodhouse are also extremely likable, and the Eltons are wonderfully unpleasant. My only criticism, and this is motivated from a 21st-century view of such things, is that everyone ends up paired up with the "correct" person, not just the one they love but the one from the right social class. Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill is the most uneven pairing that one would dare to allow.

I must say that I'm enjoying the discussion here. The rest of you have been pointing out things that I missed or not paid enough attention to. That's what I love about group-read discussions! :)

22LauraBrook
des. 26, 2015, 11:15 am

Hopping in here a few months late, I'm afraid! I'm just about halfway through with my first reading of Emma, and I'm feeling fairly neutral about most of it. (Partly that's because it's my read-in-bed book so I'm often falling asleep in the middle of things.) So far, what's striking me the most is how similar the Gwyneth movie version is to the story line! That's kind of sad, though, isn't it? Anyway, I'm hoping to get stuck in a little more this afternoon.

23christina_reads
des. 27, 2015, 4:56 pm

>22 LauraBrook: It's been a long time since I've watched the Gwyneth Paltrow Emma, but I think you're right that it's fairly close to the book (except for cutting some scenes for time, presumably). Hope you enjoy the second half of the novel more!

24LauraBrook
des. 28, 2015, 10:47 am

>23 christina_reads: I really have been enjoying it more, a lot more! I've only got a few dozen pages left, and I'm kind of sad to see it go. A bonus is that I can move my 3 other physical copies of the book onto my Already Read shelves, and put some newer titles in its place!

>21 mathgirl40: Emma is not the only great character in this novel. Mr. Knightley and Mr. Woodhouse are also extremely likable, and the Eltons are wonderfully unpleasant. My only criticism, and this is motivated from a 21st-century view of such things, is that everyone ends up paired up with the "correct" person, not just the one they love but the one from the right social class. Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill is the most uneven pairing that one would dare to allow.
Yes to all of this! Very well said, especially about the Eltons.

25Maleva
des. 30, 2015, 10:10 am

I just saw this thread and, coincidentally, I've just started reading Emma yesterday, my first Jane Austen book. I've been careful not to read most of the posts, since I want to avoid spoilers.

26christina_reads
des. 30, 2015, 10:22 am

>25 Maleva: I'm so excited for you! Hope you enjoy Emma...and if you do, you definitely need to read the rest of Austen's novels! :)