VP Michael Pence (He-who-would-be-king)

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VP Michael Pence (He-who-would-be-king)

Editat: maig 10, 2018, 12:38pm

Pence is elected, so, unlike other Cabinet members, can't be fired by the Large Orange One.
Why then, I wonder, is he SO obsequious?
Maybe so LOO will choose him as his running mate in 2020? Not turn his base against Pence in any future run?
Maybe Pence has touched the tar baby one too many times?


Everyone should cheer the return of the hostages. I do.
But it was strange that the first thing the VP said was that he was moved by their “expression of support for the @POTUS.”
It’s like North Korea is rubbing off on HIM.

David Axelrod @davidaxelrod
5:18 AM - 10 May 2018


Pence to Mueller: "It’s time to wrap it up" http://hill.cm/imfIOs7

VP Pence has now brought his sycophancy to a whole new level. With questions concerning which senior transition officials were aware of Flynn’s secret talks w/ Russian Ambassador still unanswered and new revelations every day, investigation must continue without his interference.

Adam Schiff @RepAdamSchiff
5:40 AM - 10 May 2018


Pence and Obstruction of Justice
Jed Shugerman | Sept 4, 2017

On Friday, news broke that Special Counsel Robert Mueller had obtained a draft letter written by President Trump and advisor Stephen Miller explaining Trump’s decision to fire FBI Director Jim Comey. They wrote the letter over the weekend of May 5-7, and then on May 8th, Trump distributed and read the letter to senior officials, including White House Counsel Don McGahn and Vice President Mike Pence. Then the letter was edited, and Trump fired Comey the next day. On Friday, I suggested on Lawrence O’Donnell’s “The Last Word” on MSNBC that the most significant development was Pence’s potential criminal liability for his role in obstruction of justice (and I emphasize “potential,” because all we have at this stage are allegations in media reports and a lot more questions about the contents of the letter and Pence’s role in revising or editing it)....


Editat: maig 10, 2018, 12:32pm

Trump is no longer the worst person in government
George F. Will | May 91:07

Vice President Pence sometimes seems to agree with President Trump just by looking at him. Here are some of the ways he does it. (Video: Bastien Inzaurralde/Photo: Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post) 1:07

...Trump is what he is, a floundering, inarticulate jumble of gnawing insecurities and not-at-all compensating vanities, which is pathetic. Pence is what he has chosen to be, which is horrifying.


Editat: maig 10, 2018, 1:02pm

Funny that Will would write that. Pence is pretty close to Will's perfect candidate. Pence is a conservative ideologue. Trump isn't smart enough really to be an ideologue--he's a kind of our version of Yeltsin--a corrupt in it just for me type who will pander to those who support him.

Pence is the kind of guy that conservative republicans would really like as POTUS--the problem is they could never elect him to the job--there's not enough charisma/excitement to be had there. He would also turn off too large a % of the national audience with his right wing and religious viewpoints. Being VP is pretty much the next best thing for them and secretly I suspect a great many republicans would like to see Trump out of office and replaced by Pence because Pence wouldn't need any persuading--he knows the agenda and he believes what they do. If he becomes POTUS he'll do more damage and do it more quietly. There's not that much bombast to this guy but IMO he's more dangerous than Trump.

It's another reason why it's a pipe dream that there's anything to be gained by compromising with these people.

juny 4, 2018, 11:04am

Would Pence pardon, or wouldn't he--under these circumstances?

"...If under the Twenty-Fifth Amendment the President declared that he was temporarily unable to perform the duties of the office, the Vice
President would become Acting President and as such could pardon the President. Thereafter the President could either resign or resume the duties of his office..."

Aug 5, 1974

Editat: juny 7, 2018, 7:38am

I am laughing so goddamn hard at this video of Trump inexplicably putting his water bottle on the floor, and
Pence immediately doing the same for no reason whatsoever.
Jules Suzdaltsev @jules_su | 6 Jun 2018

IT IS an amazing clip--I think from the hurricane briefing this week(?):

juny 7, 2018, 8:39am

What a pickle for Pence if he's called upon to break a Senate tie curbing Trump's authority to establish tariffsfor national security reasons. He would have to choose between Kochs and Trump! (Not that Trump would sign it?)


jul. 13, 2018, 8:02pm

Pence family’s failed gas stations cost taxpayers $20M+
BRIAN SLODYSKO | July 13, 2018

GARDEN CITY, Ind. (AP) — Vice President Mike Pence turns nostalgic when he talks about growing up in small-town Columbus, Indiana, where his father helped build a Midwestern empire of more than 200 gas stations that provided an upbringing on the “front row of the American dream.”

The collapse of Kiel Bros. Oil Co. in 2004 was widely publicized. Less known is that the state of Indiana — and, to a smaller extent, Kentucky and Illinois — are still on the hook for millions of dollars to clean up more than 85 contaminated sites across the three states, including underground tanks that leaked toxic chemicals into soil, streams and wells.

Indiana alone has spent at least $21 million on the cleanup thus far, or an average of about $500,000 per site, according to an analysis of records by The Associated Press. And the work is nowhere near complete.

The federal government, meanwhile, plans to clean up a plume of cancer-causing solvent discovered beneath a former Kiel Bros. station that threatens drinking water near the Pence family’s hometown...


set. 8, 2018, 11:04am

No, President Mike Pence Would Not Be Worse Than Trump
Neil J. Young | 09/08/2018

...no doubt, there’s good reason for liberals and others to be concerned about a Pence presidency. As the governor of Indiana, he advanced an aggressively right-wing course on social issues that, even in that conservative state, many considered extreme. Both his critics and his friends depict him as obsessively focused on overturning abortion rights and banning same-sex marriage, pursuing those with a legendary passion that some say borders on fanaticism. “Zealot” is a word you come across a lot when you start to read accounts of his political career.

On matters of climate change, deregulation and taxes, Pence would be a vigorous hard-liner, pushing the extreme libertarian politics of Charles and David Koch, who seem to have a hold on the vice president.

...The American presidency has never been inhabited by the likes of Donald Trump. He constantly and increasingly imperils our system of democracy. His flouting of the Constitution sets hazardous precedents that weaken the rule of law. His volatile and irrational temperament, combined with his disregard for international alliances and friendliness with autocrats and dictators, jeopardizes the safety of all of us.

Pence’s politics, while thoroughly conservative, fall in line with the basic Republican orthodoxy of the last 40 years. That’s an agenda worth resisting, for sure, but it’s one that Democrats will be well equipped — even emboldened — to block, especially if they claim a majority in the House this fall, as appears likely.

... (Pence is) notoriously bad politician

...even in deeply red Indiana, he faced dim prospects for re-election as governor

...an obsession with him diverts attention from the plain and urgent crisis before us.

...The president we have now is the one to worry about. (Pence’s politics could be stopped or reversed through the normal processes of American politics. Trump is bent on destroying those normal processes.)...


set. 8, 2018, 11:36am

BBC Uses Linguistics Program to Conclude Mike Pence Is Likely Author of NY Times Op-Ed
Scott Alden | September 6, 2018

The BBC decided to break down the speaking and writing styles of all top Trump administration officials using linguistics software that takes all of these variables into account, and found Mike Pence’s linguistic style was most like the style of the anonymous, viral op-ed.

Of course, there are numerous caveats to the BBC’s findings that don’t make their conclusion 100 percent certain.

...Pence typically uses somewhere between 17 and 20 words per sentence. The anonymous op-ed used an average of just 19.3 words per sentence.

...Mike Pence is a fan of the passive voice, which is rarely used in official government statements

...the op-ed’s use of the word “lodestar”...the vice president has used the word since at least 2001.

...Online oddsmaker MyBookie has Mike Pence as the favorite, according to Newsweek. If Pence is indeed the author, President Trump would be unable to fire him, as Pence is an elected official.


set. 8, 2018, 1:20pm

If it was Pence, I believe he's less concerned about America and more concerned about separating himself from Trump so he can be elected if Trump makes it all the way through his term.

Editat: set. 8, 2018, 5:34pm

#10--the thing with Pence is he's an experienced politician--he knows how to schmooze with other politicians--he's smart enough to stay away from major gaffes and he's pretty much scandal free. He's very strait-laced and I would be surprised if there are any serious skeletons in his closet. He also instinctively knows how to act in a crisis situation--take for instance last year's hurricanes in Texas--he pitches right in--gets his feet wet and his hands dirty--he talks to people on their level and he knows what questions to ask. Contrast that with Trump's empathy lacking reaction who openly cringed at the wet feet, dirty hands idea. Pence is also a guy I think that would unite other republican politicians--not united by fear(s) anymore but because they really like him. He believes in all the things he's supposed to (if you're a republican that is) and he's harder on some of the key ones than most. He'd be almost the perfect candidate except for one thing---he lacks charisma. One might even say he's dull as dishwater. On a national stage he'd put too many people to sleep--at least the ones that like his message. For those who don't like his message he's like the son of Satan. But on the republican end of the spectrum he'd be a democratic version of Walter Mondale. IMO he's reached way beyond his level already and that's primarily because Trump struck such a nerve with so many people and he got picked up to ride along in the train. Mike Pence would be lucky to get two thirds of the voters that Trump got.

Pence does connect the dots for the rapture happy, the second amendment nuts, the Koch loving liberatarians, the regulation busting Wall Street--K Street people and for the let's invade another country bomb the shit out of someone crowd too.

set. 8, 2018, 5:39pm

>11 lriley:

A good assessment.

set. 10, 2018, 4:04pm

New book released this week.

The Shadow President: The Truth About Mike Pence

from a review in The Washington Post:

The book offers plenty of evidence that Pence’s presidential aspirations remain strong. The executive branch is littered with Pence people because “Trump didn’t have any people of his own.” The vice president’s “pious and cautious exterior” hides his “desire for power equal to Trump’s,” and he benefits from his contrast to the president: “Remarkably, the many crises created by Trump, from staff turmoil in the executive branch to scandals involving mistreating women, played to Pence’s advantage. Trump’s failures were the failures of an immoral man whose sexual infidelities, lies, and distortions had marked him as a sinner. The contrasting public personas, as Pence raised his profile, couldn’t have been starker.”

set. 10, 2018, 6:15pm

Great thread, Margd, but thanks especially for #5

set. 10, 2018, 6:17pm

>12 amysisson: It may or may not be important for you to know that lriley is an irredeemable Arltonian.

set. 11, 2018, 12:14am

>15 RickHarsch:

Alas, I have no idea what that means.

set. 11, 2018, 12:25am

>15 RickHarsch:

Me neither.

set. 11, 2018, 2:33am

A follower of Roberto Arlt. See River Boat Books. Mr. Riley has made English literary history, translating the second half of the extraordinary work by Roberto Arlt of Argentina, finished in 1931, The Seven Madmen and The Flamethrowers, the latter, the second half, untranslated until our lriley managed it and it was recently published. Arlt's book is an amazing treatment of modernity.

set. 11, 2018, 3:38pm

The chaotic aftermath of invoking the 25th Amendment (Opinion)
Laurence H. Tribe | September 11, 2018

...As the almost comical...sequence...shows, the 25th Amendment was not written with an eye to resolving controversies of this kind. Nothing in its text, structure, or history offers safe passage through the labyrinth of alternative readings. Nor does the Amendment explain clearly how to bounce this ball back and forth among competing branches of the government when the president actively resists his own disempowerment.

Unlike the Impeachment Clause, carefully structured to leave only a single ambiguity — defining the meaning of “high crimes and misdemeanors,” which it entrusts to the House and Senate — the 25th Amendment is painfully ambiguous not only as to the meaning of “unable to discharge,” but also as to who may do what to get this Rube Goldberg machine going. And that is a recipe for instability and chaos, the very outcome that those advocating use of the amendment should be seeking to avoid...


set. 11, 2018, 4:14pm

Curiosity: what does "L O O"(#1, May 10)
stand for? I couldnʻt think of anyone in the main stream of politics with those initials

set. 11, 2018, 4:37pm

Large Orange One--used earlier in post.

Editat: set. 11, 2018, 6:16pm

Thanks, margd. I THOUGHT it must be someone NOT in the main stream of politics --at least not until recently!

Editat: set. 12, 2018, 12:36am

Coincidentally the word LOO refers to a toilet in British English, and one of the UK's best-known political cartoonists, Steve Bell, depicts Trump with a toilet as his head, his strange haircut forming the toilet seat.

des. 7, 2018, 2:35pm

Opinion: Mueller Hints That Mike Pence May Be Indicted Soon
Leo Vidal | Dec 6th, 2018 by

...Special Counsel Mueller released his heavily redacted 13-page sentencing memo for Michael Flynn on Tuesday night, he did NOT redact one key piece of information. The memo clearly states that the Trump transition team was heavily involved in Flynn’s illegal dealings with Russia.

And, as everyone now remembers, the person in charge of that transition team was none other than vice president-elect Mike Pence.

...Many people are now also remembering when the new vice president went on national television and declared to the world that Michael Flynn was clean as a whistle, and innocent of all charges.

However, before Pence did this, Congressman Elijah Cummings had notified Pence in writing that Flynn had committed perjury and lied about his contacts with foreign governments, especially Turkey.

Thanks to Mueller’s memo we know that Pence, while defending Flynn on TV, knew that the new National Security Adviser had also committed perjury and lied about his contacts with Russia.

In other words, the vice president has been caught in numerous lies, not only to the American people, but also to federal law enforcement authorities. It is very likely that the redacted portions of Mueller’s memo mention the name Mike Pence, and not in a good way...


des. 9, 2018, 8:26pm

>23 John5918:

I love Steve Bell's cartoons! I wasn't familiar enough with 'Large Orange One' to have made that connection. I had parsed 'lid' as slang for hairpiece. Both work, of course.

Editat: gen. 10, 2019, 10:45am

No disrespect for staffers who really keep the show running, but sending Pence to meet with staffers over the weekend on shutdown was a real slap in the face for anyone working on inside-the Beltway rules, I think?

Plus having him tell McConnell the untruth that Trump was onside with earlier compromise in December, only to pull rug.


NO ONE escapes Trump orbit with their dignity and reputation intact!

Editat: gen. 23, 2019, 7:47pm

". . . Dignity and reputation intact"

Didn't Mike Pompeo''s predecessor as Sec.of State so "escape"? ( I remember
reading about him as (though an amateur in diplomacy) a better-than-expected
cabinet member.) M. P. doesn't seem to be headed for the same
kind of post-cabinet reputation. Or will he receive another job, as he did
when removed as CIA Dire4ctor (which he also wasn't qualified for?)

Editat: març 11, 2019, 12:11pm

CNN Town Hall with Pete Buttigieg Mar 10, 2019 | 03\10\19 (49:04)

(Pence mentioned at 15:30, 18:00)



'Porn star presidency': Pence support for Trump questioned by Democrat
Associated Press in Austin, Texas | 11 Mar 2019

...Buttigieg also said he had “disagreed with Pence ferociously … but I thought, well, at least he believes in our institutions and he’s not personally corrupt. But then … how could he get on board with this presidency?”


Editat: jul. 14, 2019, 2:44am

Bill Kristol @BillKristol | 5:48 AM - 13 Jul 2019

I’ve been wondering why the video of the VP and senators* at the border is so disconcerting. Is it that they enter, gaze at the refugees in the enclosure, and depart without even trying to speak briefly with them or wish them well—without, as it were, acknowledging their humanity?


* including Lindsey Graham, John Cornyn, Thom Tillis

Overturn tables? Crack a whip? Yell?

Or enter, gaze, depart?


Pence tours crowded detainment facility in Texas
JDennis Romero | July 12, 201901:17

'No shower, no shower!': Migrants' shouts greet Pence as he visits Texas detention centers
'The vice president saw detainees packed into their holding areas surrounded by chain-link fence.
Your Video Begins in: 00:01


Editat: jul. 13, 2019, 12:18pm

Pence was on a day trip to a human zoo yesterday!
How much lower can he go during the months leading up to the election???

ag. 24, 2019, 8:33am

I can't imagine Pence will survive being Trump's VP, but he's apparently looking to 2024, as is Nikki Haley?

Haley-Pence rivalry heats up as GOP weighs post-Trump future
ALEX ISENSTADT | 08/24/2019

...At a time when Republicans are starting to contemplate what their party will look like after Donald Trump leaves office, a rivalry has developed between (Nikki Haley & Mike Pence) who cut markedly different profiles — and signs of strain are bubbling to the surface.

Pence and Haley aren't openly sniping: Publicly, both sides maintain there's nothing but mutual respect between them. But interviews with nearly two dozen top Republicans revealed that the opposing camps are closely tracking each other's moves, and remain deeply suspicious of one another...


Editat: set. 3, 2019, 2:57am

David Frum @davidfrum | 6:55 PM · Sep 2, 2019
The VP is staying a 3 hour drive from Irish capital, necessitating costly helicopters, all so that his visit to Ireland can put cash in the boss’s pocket.
Normal federal employees go to prison for such schemes

Brian Schatz @brianschatz (US Seanator fr Hawaii) | 9:29 PM · Sep 2, 2019
We would not approve reimbursement for hotel or gas if an employee picked a hotel three hours away from the event.

David Frum @davidfrum | 8:42 PM · Sep 2, 2019
President Kennedy and President Clinton stayed at the Shelbourne Hotel on St Stephen’s Green, 5 minute motorcade from every government office...

Alexander Marquardt @MarquardtA | 1:02 PM · Sep 2, 2019
VP Pence arrived in Ireland, he's staying 2 nights at Trump's Doonbeg golf resort, a 3hr drive from Dublin where his meetings are (he'll fly).
Due to have dinner tomorrow, @rtenews reports, at a distant cousin's restaurant

Pence: US wants Brexit that encourages Irish stability
The United States wants the terms of Britain's exit from the EU to protect stability on the island of Ireland and respect the Good Friday Agreement, US Vice President Mike Pence has said.

set. 4, 2019, 12:43am

And this just in! Pence isn't anti-LGBT! He's going to have dinner with a gay couple in Ireland!


set. 5, 2019, 12:27am

How Mike Pence shat on the new carpet in Ireland’s spare room (Irish Times)

Stoical smiles as US vice-president delivers strong endorsement of Johnson and Brexit

set. 5, 2019, 3:52am

>34 John5918: Thanks! It made me hum "If I had the luck of the Irish..."

set. 19, 2019, 2:05pm

Pence's new press secretary defended family separations and dates Stephen Miller--a very special lady, apparently. 🤢

Nick Miroff @NickMiroff | 6:59 AM · Sep 19, 2019:
Pence has hired Katie Waldman, 27, to be his new press secretary, per NBC. She was a spokesperson for DHS under Nielsen, then comms director for Sen McSally. Also worth noting: Waldman is dating Stephen Miller

Pence taps former DHS press aide as new press secretary
J. David Ake | Sept. 19, 2019

...(Katie) Waldman...previously served as the public defender of the Trump administration’s policy of family separations as deputy press secretary at the Department of Homeland Security.


set. 20, 2019, 8:36am

Pence knew.

Trump and Giuliani’s Quest for Fake Ukraine “Dirt” on Biden: An Explainer
Viola Gienger | September 10, 2019

Vice President Mike Pence was about to finish a routine joint press conference with Polish President Andrzej Duda in Warsaw last week, when he got two astutely specific questions about his meeting the previous day with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy:

“Number one, did you discuss Joe Biden at all during that meeting yesterday with the Ukrainian President? And number two, can you assure Ukraine that the hold-up of U.S. security assistance has absolutely nothing to do with efforts, including by Rudy Giuliani, to try to dig up dirt on the Biden family?” Associated Press reporter Jill Colvin asked.

Pence answered the first question directly: “Well, on the first question, the answer is no.” His response to the second question was more interesting. He essentially demurred...


Editat: set. 23, 2019, 3:53pm

Passive aggressive resistance by Michigan Republicans to not tell Pence how poorly 8-car motorcade would be perceived on car-free Mackinac Island? I'm sure he had nothing to fear from day visitors (fudgies), and certainly not from residents and people staying at Grand Hotel! I've never seen such a concentration of Rs as in the Grand Hotel's dining area!

Michigan's governor has a modest home in Lansing, but a beautiful summer place on Mackinac: though she's a Democrat, I'm sure she would have loaned the VP a horse-drawn limo-carriage.

A Motorcade on Michigan's Mackinac Island? Some Call Vice President Mike Pence's Flouting Vehicle Ban 'Disrespectful'
Tara Law | 1:02 PM

Michigan’s Mackinac Island is a historic community of strong traditions. It’s best known for its Victorian cottages, fudge shops — and a firm ban on driving.

Although residents can receive a temporary vehicle permit, and the police own at least one vehicle, residents and visitors traverse Mackinac on bicycles, snowmobiles or on foot. The only sitting President to visit the island, Gerald Ford, traveled by horse-drawn carriage. (margd: There was a limo for emergencies but it was hidden in the interior and not used,)

Now, Vice President Mike Pence is under fire for traveling in what might be the first motorcade in the island’s history. This weekend Pence traveled via SUV, and was reportedly accompanied by seven other vehicles, to the Mackinac Republican Leadership Conference...



No excuses. He knew better, but he's a boor just like Trump.

...Pence was on Mackinac Island...told the crowd he had visited Mackinac often while growing up and into adulthood...


set. 27, 2019, 7:53am

Pence seeks to dodge impeachment spotlight as his Ukrainian moves attract notice
Toluse Olorunnipa and Ashley Parker | September 26, 2019

...Pence did not participate in a controversial July 25 phone call in which Trump pushed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky

...on or around 14 May, the President instructed Vice President Pence to cancel his planned travel to Ukraine to attend President Zelenskyy’s inauguration on 20 May

...“And I think you should ask for VP Pence’s conversation, because he had a couple conversations also,” Trump told reporters Wednesday as he faced questions about the July 25 phone call. “They’re all perfect.”

Trump’s comments — which administration officials said were not seen internally as trying to undermine Pence — set off a debate inside the administration about whether to release the vice president’s transcripts. While some in the White House were concerned about precedent, others argued that Pence’s conversations with Zelensky were appropriate and contain nothing alarming, and would be reassuring to those worried about the U.S.-Ukraine relationship, according to a person familiar with the matter.

...Pence has managed to stay just a step removed from the drama, said Michael Steel, a Republican strategist who worked under former House speaker John A. Boehner.

...Pence’s decision to stay focused on policy (on USMCA in IN) rather than impeachment is a way to inoculate himself against the scandals surrounding the president, said Doug Heye, a Republican strategist and former spokesman for the Republican National Committee....


set. 27, 2019, 8:16am

#39--I've heard that Trump has already implicated Pence in phone calls made to Zelensky and/or other Ukrainian actors.

oct. 3, 2019, 12:56am

Trump involved Pence in efforts to pressure Ukraine’s leader, though officials say vice president was unaware of allegations in whistleblower complaint
Greg Miller, Greg Jaffe and Ashley Parker
Oct. 2, 2019

...Pence’s activities occurred amid several indications of the president’s hidden agenda. Among them were the abrupt removal of the U.S. ambassador to Kiev; the visible efforts by the president’s lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani, to insert himself in the U.S.-Ukraine relationship; as well as alarms being raised inside the White House even before the emergence of an extraordinary whistleblower complaint about Trump’s conduct.

Perhaps most significantly, one of Pence’s top advisers was on the July 25 call and the vice president should have had access to the transcript within hours

...In his meeting with Zelensky (in Poland, Sept 1), Pence conveyed the news that hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. aid to Ukraine was not going to be released amid concerns about the country’s lagging efforts to combat corruption. He also emphasized Trump’s frustration that he thought the European Union was not doing a sufficient job in helping to provide aid. A participant in the meeting said Zelensky was “crestfallen” by the news, though a second participant described the meeting as “cordial” and Zelensky as understanding of U.S. concerns.

At that point, Ukraine’s president had already spoken to Trump and was familiar with the president’s demands. Pence did not mention Biden or the dormant probe of Burisma, the company for which his son had served as a board member. But former officials said that Pence’s emphasis on corruption probably would have been interpreted by Zelensky as “code” for that issue, whether the vice president intended it or not.

...In late August, with a hurricane bearing down on Florida, Trump canceled a trip to Poland, where he was scheduled to attend a World War II commemoration and meet with Zelensky to discuss the frozen U.S. aid.

Instead he sent Pence, with instructions to “take the measure” of the Ukrainian leader and inform him that the administration wasn’t going to release the aid until it had assurances that Zelensky was committed to fighting corruption, U.S. officials said.

...Pence faulted the E.U. for not providing more security aid to Ukraine, just as Trump did on the July 25 call, and also reiterated the administration’s position that Zelensky needed to do more to fight corruption.

When Zelensky asked about the aid, Pence replied that the administration was “still looking at it,” a U.S. official said.

...Upon his return to Washington, Pence told Trump that Zelensky seemed to have a “good heart” and “was good on anti-corruption and pushing back on the oligarchs,” said a U.S. official. The vice president expressed confidence that Zelensky seemed to be surrounding himself with “good people,” two officials said, and encouraged Trump to release the aid...

A few weeks later...Trump...released the aid to Ukraine. Pence and Zelensky spoke again on Sept. 18 in a call that U.S. officials described as somewhat perfunctory.

Zelensky expressed gratitude for the aid and Pence wished him well on his upcoming meeting with Trump at the United Nations...



...Trump isn't making it easy for Pence to distance himself, even suggesting that the details of Pence's phone calls and conversations with Zelensky should be released.

"I think you should ask for Vice President Pence's conversation, because he had a couple conversations also," Trump told reporters last week after the release of the White House transcript of his own July 25 call with Zelensky...


oct. 3, 2019, 9:31am

#41--what I got from all that is if he goes down he's taking Pence with him.

oct. 3, 2019, 9:53am

>42 lriley: President Pelosi!

oct. 3, 2019, 10:18am

Probably not a President Pelosi?

I doubt she wants it for a year, at expense of a 2020 blue wave? So I doubt she'd go after Pence, unless there was much more there there.

Some think that Trump might have tried to ensnare Pence so that he can hold prospect of Dem President Pelosi over Rs if they support impeachment and indictment. I doubt he's that strategic?

A correspondent elsewhere convinced me that as with Nixon, rather than see WH go to a Dem, Rs would (TRY to) convince a vulnerable Pence to resign so that another VP could be appointed.

Trump would no doubt try to extract a promise of a priori pardon from any new VP appointee, and he might just get it from House Minority Leader McCarthy?

Trump maxim: NOBODY's reputation survives association with Trumpster....

oct. 3, 2019, 3:35pm

#43--I think I said something about a President Pelosi a couple weeks ago.

#44--in the case of a replacement republican president pardoning Trump and/or his gang--depending on the mood of the public that could really hurt them in House and Senate elections, governor and state house/assembly elections. That also doesn't end Trump's liability regarding states prosecuting him and NYS for one---will.

Editat: oct. 3, 2019, 5:57pm

If pardoned, he'll only continue to haunt and incite the country. Whenever I'm feeling charitable, I try to remember all the farmers, civil servants, refugee kids et al that he's already harmed. Not to mention the environment and climate. ANY pardon should be conditional on him never again tweeting or otherwise haunting the public square. Otherwise LOCK HIM UP!!

oct. 19, 2019, 8:33am

Pence, Thrown Into Turkey Negotiations, Pleases Few With Erdogan Agreement
Annie Karni | Oct. 18, 2019

...“If the issue is how Trump sees it, Pence is going to come out looking great,” said Eric S. Edelman, a former ambassador to Turkey and a senior Defense Department official in the George W. Bush administration. “If it’s from the point of view of Republicans who are very worried about this, does Pence come out looking great? No. What will it look like in historical terms? It’s too early to tell.”...


Editat: oct. 30, 2019, 4:06pm

And here I thought the Mackinac Island behavior was bad!

Schooley @Rschooley | 10/29/2019
Friend sent this of Mike Pence rolling through Austin. Not ostentatious or anything.
0:27 https://twitter.com/Rschooley/status/1189360977608732672

oct. 30, 2019, 5:49pm

What the hell? How do they begin to justify that?

Editat: oct. 30, 2019, 8:19pm

The second saddest thing is that Donald, at least, doesn't reimburse the city police depts...

oct. 30, 2019, 8:40pm

Crown Prince Michael. These people are into the trappings of royalty.

oct. 31, 2019, 6:20am

>51 lriley:

A year or so ago I was sitting in a cafe in Washington DC with a retired Sudanese bishop when we noticed a commotion outside. First hordes of police blocked all traffic and started clearing the street of pedestrians, and blocking the doors of cafes such as ours so nobody could get out. Then police officers with dogs started checking all the trash cans in the street. Then a huge convoy of limousines, police vehicles and an ambulance turned out of a side street and drove slowly out of sight. Then finally a mob of expensively dressed youngish people led by an older man in what was clearly a very expensive suit appeared and walked up the street, followed by another mob of hangers-on. The leading bloke waved to us. We had no idea who he was so we asked a local who was trapped in the cafe with us. "That's our vice president, Mike Pence", he told us. Eventually the circus passed and the police officer at the door told us we were free to leave.

Trappings of royalty indeed. Reminds me of the time the late Queen Mother (Gawd bless 'er, as they say) waved to me in London, only that was different. A single limousine followed by a single unmarked police car stopped at a red traffic light. A couple of plain clothes officers stepped out of their car and stood by the limo until the light turned green. Meanwhile, she waved.

oct. 31, 2019, 6:43am

#52---not sure when it all started but we do treat our Presidents like Kings (there haven't been any Queens yet) and it may be getting worse or maybe it's just some suck it up more. Another sign is continuing to go back to the same people or their very close associates when choosing leaders. Democrats are kind of that way too. The Kennedy family. The Clinton's. I don't know how many times I've heard someone suggesting Michele Obama run for POTUS--probably hundreds. And of course there's the Bush family. Trump has no precedents but he's tried to act like he's the King of the Universe pretty much from the moment he took office and I will say I also think this notion that many politicians and voters have of American exceptionalism is a narcissistic and very dangerous one.

I would not have been happy forced to stay at the cafe until his royal highness Michael Pence passed. A good leader should not be that obtrusive. He/She should be able to walk among the people like he/she were one of them. Good leaders always have some sense of humility about them too. But then again I'm not really into the celebrity thing and the public is often guilty of gushing too much. The least they could do here is tone it down to maybe a handful of cars and leave everyone alone.

Editat: oct. 31, 2019, 7:16am

The late US Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) was said to fly economy class, a gesture widely appreciated by us peons. Rare, apparently, among elected officials and Presidential appointees--must need a strong sense of self to be in the public sphere? These displays by Pence are something else, however!

oct. 31, 2019, 8:23am

>53 lriley: I would not have been happy forced to stay at the cafe

We were not that happy either, but we're from Sudan so we're used to obeying armed police without question and we just resigned ourselves to enjoying the spectacle, like explorers seeing some arcane custom in a strange foreign land. My elderly bishop, who has been visiting the USA for decades and has family settled there, commented that the USA has become a police state.

oct. 31, 2019, 8:52am

#55--those kinds of displays could lead one to think that--also the militarization of police nationwide. The federal govt. has been selling and discounting surplus military equipment and weapons to police departments for quite some time. This leads often to unnecessary and sometimes over the top displays of force such as at the Occupy protests and at the Native American led North Dakota pipeline protest and at Ferguson. Police departments should reflect, engage and bond with their communities. There are occasions when real force is necessary for instance taking out a shooter.

oct. 31, 2019, 9:13am

>56 lriley:

"Policing by consent" is what we used to call it in Britain when I were a lad, recognising that the vast majority of people are broadly law-abiding and want to cooperate with the police, and that a low-key and unarmed approach is the best way to de-escalate a situation. As you say, there are relatively rare occasions when a different approach is required (and British police have had access to firearms on those occasions), but the police should not be allowed to treat every incident as if it is potentially one of those. That only serves to alienate those innocent people who get caught up in the display of paramilitary force, and to erode trust between police and people. I don't know what it's like in Britain now as I don't live there any more.

oct. 31, 2019, 9:57am

>57 John5918: Not that this belongs in this thread, but your comment reminds me of this recent news story:

Police Owe Nothing To Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

An armed shoplifting suspect in Colorado barricaded himself in a stranger's suburban Denver home in June 2015. In an attempt to force the suspect out, law enforcement blew up walls with explosives, fired tear gas and drove a military-style armored vehicle through the property's doors.

After an hours-long siege, the home was left with shredded walls and blown-out windows. In some parts of the interior, the wood framing was exposed amid a mountain of debris.

A federal appeals court in Denver ruled this week that the homeowner, who had no connection to the suspect, isn't entitled to be compensated, because the police were acting to preserve the safety of the public.

oct. 31, 2019, 12:29pm

#57--community policing. Cops walking beats---building relationships with people in their neighborhoods. Mailmen do it. A lot of what happens in the United States happens because of race and it's important that black or hispanic communities see their own and see that they have a stake. Community policing is kind of rare now.

#58--you can go on youtube and see literally hundreds of videos about cops shooting people's dogs. You could almost say its turned into a sport for some of them. Another is getting the wrong house--barging through the door and harassing everyone and then leaving sometimes without an apology.....and you get to replace your own door. In certain states or cities they confiscate property or money without cause. There are lots of issues with police.

Editat: nov. 18, 2019, 7:49am

Jeremy Diamond @JDiamond1 (CNN)| 3:17 PM · Nov 17, 2019
Trump just attacked Jennifer Williams, an aide to VP and career foreign service officer, as a Never Trumper
The latest in a string of Trump administration official the President has accused without evidence of being "Never Trumpers" and of attacking him.

Awaiting comment from VP https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrum

And here's the response from VPPressSec: "Jennifer is a State Department employee."


Michael McFaul McFaul | 10:38 PM · Nov 17, 2019
Wow. VP chose Jennifer Williams to work at the White House. (Vice President’s special adviser on Europe & Russia)
He and his staff pick which political appointees and detailees join the VP national security team.

Editat: des. 20, 2019, 6:31am

Christianity Today article (below) must leave VP Pence uncomfortable between a rock and a hard place.
Slavish deference to Trump may not wear well if evangelical support is finally withdrawn.

Trump Should Be Removed from Office
It’s time to say what we said 20 years ago when a president’s character was revealed for what it was.
Mark Galli | December 19, 2019

Editat: des. 20, 2019, 10:04am

>4 margd: & >61 margd:

Whatever his "dilemmas" as an eventual president of the United States, a "pardon" in a case of impeachment of Turmp could not be one of them. A President Pence couldn't pardon Trump's impeachment and conviction even if he wanted to.

In Nixon's case, Nixon wasn't impeached. He stood liable to be charged with criminal offenses. It was for these liabilities which the newly-inaugurated President Ford pardoned Nixon.

It was a deal, conditioned on Nixon's resignation. Without that, he'd have faced impeachment and trial in the senate--with his conviction, he was told, a virtual certainty.

Nixon was as sure to be convicted as Trump is sure not to be convicted. That is why Nixon is said to have been forced to resign. In such circumstances it is ridiculous to envision his vice-president "pardoning" him while he is temporarily absent under the 25th amendments' provisions, and then, post-"pardon", resuming his duties.

Had such a lame-brain thing been tried, Nixon's impeachment, trial and conviction would have proceeded as had been explained to him already.

Are legal scholars really such dopes?

des. 20, 2019, 7:47am

Cult followers do not abandon their cult leaders. Dying is the only out.

des. 20, 2019, 10:24am

>63 Molly3028:

The silly, demonstrably false crap you post tells us a number of sort-of-drearily-interesting (in the most pathetic of ways) things about you--besides, that is, that you consistently don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

This, for example:

"Cult followers do not abandon their cult leaders. Dying is the only out."

I guess then, in that case, there aren't and never have been any ex-Catholics, ex-Scientologists, ex-Mormons, ex-Evangelical-church members, ex-Communists, ex-Fascists, ex-members of the Symbianese Liberation Army, ex-Moonies, ex-bra-burning feminists, ex-Ku Klux Klan-ers, etc.

Among your other blindspots, which are legion, you are also spectacularly lacking in self-insight. For example, you clearly have no idea at all of yourself as one so captive of cult thinking and behaviors that your case is not only blindingly obvious to others, it is actually cartoonishly extreme.

des. 20, 2019, 10:55am

>61 margd: contd. Pence chooses Trump. This baby has two parts, but ambition trumps piety, apparently?

Vice President Mike Pence VP 10:00 AM · Dec 20, 2019:
While Democrats in the House wasted all their time this week on a partisan impeachment,
the Senate confirmed 13 new judges making that a total of 187 amazing judges picked by President @realDonaldTrump!

gen. 19, 2020, 6:26am

A Partisan Impeachment, a Profile in Courage
Mike Pence | Jan. 16, 2020

JFK lauded the (Dem) senator who bucked his party and voted to acquit Andrew Johnson...



Pence's outrageous op-ed holds deeper meaning
Jeremi Suri | January 18, 2020

...Pence called for "courage" from Senate Democrats who, he contended, must be willing "to stand up and reject a partisan impeachment." He invoked former Republican Senator Edmund Ross who, during the trial of President Andrew Johnson in 1868, voted against the Republican Party to prevent the removal of the president. As Pence put it: "Ross was determined to render a fair judgment, resisting his own party's stampede."

...Numerous historians have written about President Andrew Johnson's impeachment, and Senator Ross' role in his trial -- including Manisha Sinha, Brenda Wineapple, David Greenberg and David Stewart. They all agree -- and no serious historian disagrees -- that Ross intended to vote for Johnson's conviction, but suddenly changed his mind. Ross did not experience an epiphany of conscience or a surge of courage. Evidence suggests he was bribed.

President Johnson's supporters promised Ross, who had only come to the Senate in 1866 through corrupt maneuvers in Kansas, that he could have appointments for his close friends in lucrative federal government jobs. In particular, Ross' financial supporter, Perry Fuller, was appointed collector of revenue in the Port of New Orleans. Fuller promptly used his position to steal $3 million, for which he was eventually arrested. Another Ross associate was appointed Superintendent of Indian Affairs in what is today Oklahoma.

These were promises made in advance to Ross. He corresponded repeatedly with President Johnson after his vote demanding compensation "in consequence of my action on the Impeachment." And the president was attentive to Ross' demands, as he was for few others. There is also reason to believe, based on circumstantial evidence and informed opinion at the time, that Ross received a large cash payment.

No one believed that Ross was a man of conscience or principle. No one argued that he was a defender of the Constitution. He used his vote to benefit himself. And he protected a president who did everything he could to prevent the enforcement of the Constitution's protections for African American civil rights, as stipulated in the 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1866. Ross personally corrupted the impeachment process...


feb. 18, 2020, 6:18am

Who Is Katie Waldman? Four Facts about Stephen Miller's Wife After Pair's Wedding at Trump Hotel
Brendan Cole | 2/17/20

...last September, Richard Painter, a former chief ethics lawyer under President George W. Bush, told Newsweek that Waldman should not be involved in any political decisions that also involved Miller.

Painter said that as Pence distanced himself from some of Trump's policies, he was worried Waldman could "lock the vice president into the pro-Miller faction."

"When I think about it, I am very worried that she doesn't completely recuse herself from making any comments that have anything to do with Stephen Miller or the policies Stephen Miller is pushing," Painter said.


oct. 3, 2020, 4:22am


Pence (purple) is surrounded by people who have so far tested #COVID19 positive in the last 24 hours (red).
Yet Pence is skipping quarantine for some damn nonsense reason. #PenceQuarantine
Image ( https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1312220331545956352/photo/1 )

2) update: Plus KellyAnne Conway now.
Image ( https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1312224010940420097 )

- Eric Feigl-Ding @DrEricDing | 10:38 PM · Oct 2, 2020

Editat: oct. 3, 2020, 1:12pm

#68--again hardly anyone in the photos wearing masks. I guess 1) they figure it they're outside they're always safe or 2) they don't figure at all.

oct. 3, 2020, 10:27am

>68 margd: Another angle adds Trump, giving six positives around Pence:


oct. 3, 2020, 12:50pm

SEVEN positives around Pence:

CHRIS CHRISTIE, now positive, at the WH #SCOTUSNomination coronavirus rose garden summit. #COVID19
Can we finally quarantine Pence now?? #PenceQuarantine
Image ( https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1312418540046213120/photo/1 )

- Eric Feigl-Ding @DrEricDing | 11:45 AM · Oct 3, 2020

oct. 3, 2020, 3:07pm

Can we just count Barr in and call it eight? I mean, if you've seen the video he was practically sucking face with Conway at that party... if he's not positive, he's about the luckiest guy alive.

oct. 3, 2020, 5:02pm

#72---I'm not convinced Bill Barr is a real human being.

oct. 4, 2020, 12:32pm

I can't find a straightforward answer to this, does anyone know--if Trump dies*, Pence steps in automatically to act as POTUS, but is he also then automatically the candidate in the election? Does the answer change depending on the timing, i.e. at this moment, right before the election, on the election day?

*If I were the praying kind, I'd PRAY that he DOESN'T! I hope the bastard lives to end his days in prison.

Editat: oct. 4, 2020, 12:49pm

>74 LolaWalser:

I agree with your hypothetical prayer. As to your question, a reaction I read/heard (source unrecalledt) pointed out that losing a candidate this late has no precedent and no established remedy. Thus it would present serious problems: a) the GOP would have to very quickly organize some means of choosing a new candidate who would then need to choose a running-mate; and 2) it is next to impossible at this point for the states to print new ballots in time. Further complicating the situation could be the number of ballots that have already been cast by mail.

So who knows? Let's hope he stays on the ticket and does not receive a significant sympathy vote.

oct. 4, 2020, 12:50pm

>74 LolaWalser: It's an interesting question and one that I've been mulling over. The best answer I can find is one from Foreign Policy which says, essentially, we don't know but it'd be a hell of a mess.

I suspect that the outcome most people would agree on is the obvious one: act as though the 20th Amendment applies, and votes for Trump are counted for Pence.

What happens after that? Well, since it's pretty clear by now that Trump has no path to win either the popular vote or the electoral college, and Pence wouldn't even get Trump's base out, we don't really need to game out a Republican win: they don't have a shot anyway. But when Biden wins, in this scenario, it seems obvious to me that the Republicans use this as a basis for groundless lawsuits to prevent Biden taking office. (I think we've all seen by now that Republicans prefer party to country, so this is not a stretch) And at that point it might depend crucially on whether the Barrett nomination goes through.

Editat: oct. 4, 2020, 1:00pm

#74--I think there would be an emergency convention to find a candidate but it would almost certainly be Pence because they don't really have the time. The other problem is the ballots that are already cast and/or being mailed. If the timing were better for them the answer might be different--like if it were two months ago they might actually take two/three or four days to sort out who they wanted but Pence might have been it anyway.

Personally a whole lot of Covid deaths are really bad. It's hard to wish that on anyone even the orange buffoon. I'd prefer Trump end up in prison too. His dying from this rather than his ending in prison might be easier on the nation as a whole though who knows, whether he dies or ends up in prison there are probably going to be conspiracy theories and/or plots to free him galore and there's going to be at least as many sightings of him as Hitler after he finally does kick the bucket. I swear there are loads of maniacal fools that have turned him into their God and would cut his fat body into a million pieces to serve them as religious relics.

oct. 4, 2020, 1:03pm

>76 kiparsky: And at that point it might depend crucially on whether the Barrett nomination goes through

That's the interesting bit to me. If enough GOP senators are put out of commission — what would it take? five or six? — it wouldn't go through. Though I suppose some of them would turn up on gurneys with oxygen tanks in order to vote.

oct. 4, 2020, 1:07pm

>75 librorumamans:

Right, it does look like it could only be Pence. Ballots I'm assuming as >76 kiparsky:, you just count votes for Trump as votes for Pence.

>76 kiparsky:

Not to jinx anything, but if Trump croaks or is rendered completely incapacitated to run, and Pence ends up carrying the torch, I'm not certain the calculations remain the same.

Are you sure the anti-Trump Republicans would stay with Biden? It doesn't seem obvious to me.

oct. 4, 2020, 1:15pm

>77 lriley:

If Trump dies now ("now" stretching perhaps a good year or even longer), he becomes instant saint for the loons and then that's it, a good portion of the populace down the well.

I'm afraid the grief (ugh it's hard even to type) following his death would handily boost Pence. Don't know if enough to win, but I'm not finding this whole thing in the least reassuring. Puzzled by the optimism, in fact.

It's like people are still waiting for the Trumpists to come to their senses. "See, he got sick, do you see NOW what a fool he is"--but it's not about Trump being right or wrong about stuff for them at all.

Editat: oct. 4, 2020, 1:15pm

argh double

oct. 4, 2020, 1:16pm

Explainer by a law prof:

What Happens If a Presidential Candidate Becomes Incapacitated or Dies
Rules exist for what could come next, but they won’t prevent total chaos.
Brian C. Kalt | October 2, 2020


AP EXPLAINS: What happens if a candidate for president dies?

What Happens If a Presidential Candidate Dies Before Election Day?
Robbie Gramer | October 3, 2020, 3:12 PM

Explainer: What happens to the U.S. presidential election if a candidate dies or becomes incapacitated?
Joseph Ax, Jan Wolfe | October 2, 2020

We’re in the final stages of the presidential election. What happens if a candidate withdraws or dies?
Joshua Tucker | Oct. 2, 2020

and many more!

oct. 4, 2020, 1:20pm

>79 LolaWalser: you just count votes for Trump as votes for Pence.

Unless that has been established in federal legislation and in legal precedent, it's going be contested all the way up, and especially if there's no procedure in federal law and the states have various precedents. Such a mess would make the hanging chads of 200 look simple.

oct. 4, 2020, 1:25pm

>79 LolaWalser: Are you sure the anti-Trump Republicans would stay with Biden? It doesn't seem obvious to me.

Yes, that's a good point. I'm honestly not sure. And as you say, I hope we don't find out.

I honestly don't give a shit whether Trump lives or dies, and in any case it's really up to his medical care versus his past choices in life, so my wishes for good or ill are pretty irrelevant. His own words will do well enough: it is what it is.

That being said, my main concern in the "Trump dies" case is the FUD-storm (fear, uncertainty and doubt) that the Republicans would gin up around a dead Trump. Since they're already trying to invalidate the election in advance (which tells you really everything you need to know about their chances of winning outright), the utter chaos they'd be able to create would likely be more fatal than Trump's failure to date on Covid.

oct. 4, 2020, 1:28pm

>82 margd:

Right, the answers are available more regarding the maintenance of the admin, of course, chain of command and all that, but it seems it gets all-out murky regarding who gets to be the POTUS candidate. Although in the current situation at least, "Pence" seems to be the result no matter how you slice it.

>83 librorumamans:

Hmm, I'm feeling very dense, but on what grounds would they contest Pence's candidacy?

Editat: oct. 4, 2020, 2:55pm

>85 LolaWalser:

What I'm envisioning is not a challenge to Pence's candidacy. I'm also being totally speculative on this, but:
  • if it's a name on the ballot and not a party, and
  • if that person is no longer standing (both meanings here),
  • is there a federal precedent in law that says a voter who voted for Donald can be presumed to have voted equally for any unnamed substitute for Donald? Is such a presumption incontestable?
  • If there is no federal precedent and
  • since the states (I believe) run the election individually,
  • say, New Jersey accepts such a substitution and, say, New York invalidates ballots in favour of such a candidate,
is the result of such an election open to contest?

I think it would create a legal mess.

oct. 4, 2020, 2:20pm

IMHO if Trump dies Pence cannot just assume his votes. Votes are for Trump not Pence in the strictest definition of the word. People would have to write in Pence for his vote to count.

oct. 4, 2020, 2:22pm

#80--the dems would be better off betting on and making peace with their own left than on disaffected republicans.

Pence is charmless and wooden and extremely hard right and religious. He's not very appealing to most people really. I'm sure most of Trump's base (those who weren't completely crushed and demoralized or having in the meantime murdered themselves and/or others to follow Donald to hell) would vote for Pence and that he'd siphon back a decent number of Biden traitors but I still think he'd take a decent hit to the overall numbers. He's just not as popular as Trump and a lot of that has to do with the Donald's outrageousness which isn't in Pence's DNA. I really don't think that Pence though has anywhere near the ability to draw people to him that Trump does. The evangelicals that Pence is particularly strong with are more the polite church going on Sunday folk.

Editat: oct. 4, 2020, 2:54pm

Jared's Alexander Haig moment?

Free lead:
Jared is now in control of the White House,
including overriding personnel demanding that the Pence not travel due to COG* issues.
The seat-fillers rebellion is ON.

- Rick Wilson (Lincoln Project) @TheRickWilson | 2:17 PM · Oct 4, 2020

* Continuity of Government?


Trump is furious with White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows
after the top West Wing official contradicted WH physician Dr. Sean Conley’s assessment of the president on Saturday,
two sources with knowledge of the situation told CNN.

- Jim Acosta (CNN) Acosta | 11:33 AM · Oct 4, 2020


White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows rubs his head
as U.S. Navy Commander Dr. Sean Conley, the White House physician, speaks to the media about President Donald Trump's health.

Photo by @erinscottphoto
Image ( https://twitter.com/corinne_perkins/status/1312793102474784770/photo/1 )

- corinne_perkins (Reuters) @corinne_perkins | 12:34 PM · Oct 4, 2020

oct. 4, 2020, 3:20pm

>74 LolaWalser: When a US citizen votes for president he's really voting for an elector who is pledged to vote for that candidate. A lot of states have laws that force their electors to honor their pledge, but not all, and it's an open question whether they can switch their vote if the person they're pledged to dies..

If they can switch their vote then I expect the national party will have chosen a preferred alternate, likely Pence, and since the electors are party functionaries that they will follow the party's lead.

oct. 4, 2020, 4:22pm

#90--that sounds right.

Editat: oct. 5, 2020, 10:29am

Rs could impeach and indict...lots of material...takes time, but then Rs could not only dump a candidate on steroids etc. now, but wouldn't have to face possibility of an even more demented Trump candidacy in 2024?

The Rules for Displacing an Ailing Presidential Candidate
Brian C. Kalt | October 4, 2020

...The Democratic Party’s Rule F states:

"In the event of death, resignation or disability of a nominee of the Party for President or Vice President after the adjournment of the National Convention, the National Chairperson of the Democratic National Committee shall confer with the Democratic leadership of the United States Congress and the Democratic Governors Association and shall report to the Democratic National Committee, which is authorized to fill the vacancy or vacancies"

The key phrase is “death, resignation or disability.” The rule not only mentions “disability,” it distinguishes it from resignation, suggesting that a candidate like President Wilcox—one who is disabled but has refused to quit—can be replaced. Significantly, though, the rule offers no process or standards for determining whether the candidate is sufficiently “disabled.” A candidate who is in a coma would present a relatively easy case. “Surely she would resign, if only she were conscious,” the party could say. But a candidate like President Wilcox who is able enough to assert that she is just fine presents an extremely difficult case. Any attempt to remove a resistant candidate present a remarkable challenge for the party

The Republicans’ Rule 9(a) is even more vague:

"The Republican National Committee is hereby authorized and empowered to fill any and all vacancies which may occur by reason of death, declination, or otherwise of the Republican candidate for President of the United States or the Republican candidate for Vice President of the United States, as nominated by the national convention, or the Republican National Committee may reconvene the national convention for the purpose of filling any such vacancies."

Here too, the phrasing (“death, declination, or otherwise”) suggests that even if a candidate wants to stay, the party could decide otherwise. And “otherwise” is potentially much more expansive than just “disability.” But it’s not so expansive a term that the party can replace a candidate in the middle of an election campaign for just any reason. “Otherwise” is best read as being something of the same sort as death or declination: something that makes the candidate unavailable—not merely undesirable. Again, a candidate in a coma would clearly qualify. A candidate whose problem is that he is behind by 20 points in the polls? Certainly not.

...If the ailing candidate is also the sitting president, like the hypothetical President Wilcox, the 25th Amendment adds another layer to all of this. Imagine that the vice president and cabinet, citing Wilcox’s illness, invoke Section 4 of the 25th Amendment and transfer her powers to the vice president. On one level, this move could help make the case for her party to remove her from the ticket. The 25th Amendment spells out a process for declaring someone ‘unable,” and in this case, that process would just have been used. But Section 4 is about removing the president’s powers temporarily until he or she recovers. A successful invocation of Section 4 would not automatically remove the incumbent from the ticket. Kicking someone off the ticket amounts to a permanent ouster that seemingly requires a distinct process.

...For all of these reasons, then, an ailing candidate would almost certainly remain on the ticket unless she could be persuaded to drop out. Whether the party acted by persuasion or coercion, it would need to be sure that changing horses midstream would be feasible both legally and politically—two burdens that might both be hard to satisfy. And if the candidate in question were the sitting president and party dissenters sought to use Section 4 of the 25th Amendment to temporarily remove her from office, her condition would probably need to meet the very high bar constitutionally required for such a dramatic action.


des. 22, 2020, 9:33am

Trump turns on everyone
Jonathan Swan | 12/22/2020

...Targets of Trump’s outrage include Vice President Pence...

...A source who spoke to Trump said the president was complaining about Pence and brought up a Lincoln Project ad that claims that Pence is "backing away" from Trump. This ad has clearly got inside Trump’s head, the source said.

Trump views Pence as not fighting hard enough for him — the same complaint he uses against virtually everybody who works for him and has been loyal to him.

Pence’s role on Jan. 6 has begun to loom large in Trump’s mind, according to people who’ve discussed the matter with him.

Trump would view Pence performing his constitutional duty — and validating the election result — as the ultimate betrayal...



The Lincoln Project @ProjectLincoln | 2:15 PM · Dec 8, 2020
.@realDonaldTrump, the end is coming. Even @Mike_Pence knows.
He's running from away you, Donald. And on January 6th, VP
will preside over the vote proving @joebiden beat you.
0:39 ( https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1336388939087691777 )

des. 22, 2020, 10:30am

#93--I suppose Pence could decide not to show up that day. Covid though will be off the table as an excuse though since he's taken the vaccine. Other than that I don't know what Michael could do. When Donald decides someone should take a bullet for him and they decide not to then it's Jeff Sessions, Doug Ducey, Brian Kemp time. Donald's probably got one hell of a long enemies list right now. Where to begin with starting to get even? It's sad.

gen. 6, 5:33am

James Oliphant (Reuters) @jamesoliphant | 1:06 AM · Jan 6, 2021:

Pence really doesn't have that much to lose by defying Trump. He's not viewed as MAGA by the die hards.And he really can't channel that stuff well. His base is evangelicals and Koch Industries-types. He could stand to rebuild his relationships with the Chamber wing of the party.


Pence is elected official in his own right. Trump could throw him off ticket, if he had one, but at this point there's little Trump can do to hurt him--except, I guess, to primary him in 2024--if Trump is alive and politically viable then.

gen. 6, 10:27am

Kaitlan Collins (CNN) @kaitlancollins | 10:21 AM · Jan 6, 2021:
Pence is basically just bracing himself for today, people around him say,
as Trump continues to lash out at him privately, telling people
he saved Pence's career by making him vice president and that Pence would be nothing without Trump.

gen. 6, 11:58am

I’ll bet he’s been trying not to think “Drop dead.” For quite some time.

gen. 8, 8:57am

An 'angry' Pence navigates the fallout of his rupture with Trump over election, Capitol riots
Maureen Groppe | Jan 8, 2020


"They let them in"!!

Fascist_Parler_Watch @RWParlerWatch | 2:39 AM · Jan 7, 2021:
Lin Wood is suggesting the firing squad for Mike Pence
Image ( https://twitter.com/RWParlerWatch/status/1347085376884678656/photo/1 )

Editat: gen. 9, 3:05pm

>98 margd: contd.

Former VPs are apparently eligible for only six months of Secret Service protection.
Congress should extend it for Pence. Lifetime, I think?

Trump supporters chanting 'HANG MIKE PENCE' at the Capitol Building
0:22 ( https://twitter.com/59dallas/status/1346963199778828290 )
- Dallas @59dallas | 6:33 PM · Jan 6, 2021

gen. 9, 6:43pm

>99 margd: I object strenuously to paying for yet another leech on the taxpayer's back. I am all for impeaching trump yet again, because a conviction would mean we wouldn't have to pay to quarter his SS detail at his hotels at his jacked up rates until the end of his miserable life.

Pence thought this was going to further his career. He should have remembered that 'Everything Trump Touches Dies'.

Editat: gen. 9, 7:13pm

Regardless of how objectionable the individual, a great nation doesn't leave its president/ VP exposed to violent retribution after their service, IMO. It has more to do with the nation/office than the craven ones who inhabited the office. (In Trump's case, I'm all for conditioning protection with the measliest per diem possible.)

In Pence's case, he's drawing murderous fire for choosing Constitution over party/ Trump.

gen. 10, 4:03pm

>100 MsMixte: I'm all for the impeachment since it would mean he could never run for any office. Ever!

Editat: gen. 13, 2:44am

>102 mamzel: Also an impeached and convicted Trump would not be extended courtesy of access to classified material, I think?


Mike Pence for President https://youtu.be/L0PzmRfxvz0 via YouTube
1:29 ( https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/1349200378206642184 )
- Rick Wilson @TheRickWilson | 10:43 PM · Jan 12, 2021

gen. 15, 5:11pm

Pence calls Harris while Trump continues to stew in denial
Kevin Liptak | January 15, 2021