Marvel: The Golden Age 1939-1949

May as well start a new thread about this extraordinary (amazing, unusual, weird - choose your adjective) project, as I am sure there will be a lot of debate about it.
Very much aimed at the USA market.
See the FS website here.

FS is a business and needs money to survive. Game of Thrones and now this is a way to do this, allowing them to continue publishing other works.

As long as they keep doing this I have no issue with it. Of course the worry is that they'll focus more and more on these cash cows, and less on other books. But we'll have to wait and see.

Also, for better or worse Marvel comics have had an enormous impact on our culture, never more so than in the last decade or so. How many trillions has the MCU made now? They are a significant part of 20th century literature.

I actually think this is pretty neat, though not my thing so I definitely won’t be buying it.

I am a comic book collector who will pass on this. Would rather spend the same amount with Thornwillow press.

Haha, I saw your reaction on the other thread and was about to reply there.

I'm quite excited with the project. I'm not a Marvel fan and do not have £150 to splash on a single book, but I welcome the addition. It looks every inch like a collectable and looks very well-made and attractive. I'm sure a lot of Marvel fans will love it. It will look superb on a shelf. Also, it's good to point out that it's Marvel that contacted Folio (not the other way round) to make a special edition of the Golden Age to commemorate the 80th anniversary of Marvel #1. Folio's work over the past years must have caught their eyes.

I don't think Folio is straying too much from what they've been doing for years. It's still at heart turning classics into 'fine' editions. And naturally, there are classics in every genre. It's also targeting another set of people; books like Dune, Games of Thrones, The Shining, etc have all helped Folio reach a different audience. On Wordpress or Youtube, you can see that suddenly more people have become aware of the Folio society. (There are also more articles about them online on bigger sites.

But I kind of understand your concern. So long as Folio is doing ok and keeping on publishing the usual genres, I guess we have nothing to worry about.

Another nail in the coffin for the Folio Society that was.

I love watching the Marvel cinematic universe but have no interest in the comics so was not tempted in the least for this. That said I am supportive of Folio dabbling into new genres and markets and if they prove successful then all the better. I've noticed an increase in chatter regarding Folio elsewhere and on Youtube since they released Game of Thrones. I suspect they hoped the title to act as a gateway drug for those buyers to pick up a few other titles, no doubt this might do the same though I suspect comics as a genre is a different kettle of fish to GoT which has since been more popularised by the TV show than I suspect the Marvel movies have done for the comics.

Regardless I'm not all that convinced as to whether this is somehow another act of self ruination for Folio. Despite some questionable decisions Folio has made of late I'm not worried their reaching out into these more niche markets will somehow cause them to overlook their core traditional literature picks/collections, I mean their still picking out niche titles from more traditional literature like Studies of Nature not too long ago.

Not for me, but agree with the line of argument that this and GoT are good for the society (GoT is up to over 200 reviews now!).

If the criticism is on the curation side of things, then:

a) it will only matter if we see less of the more esoteric stuff, which https://www.foliosociety.com/uk/studies-from-nature.html puts paid to for now.

b) at least Marvel's output is about 100 times more profound and significant than Paulo Coelho.

I for one think it's terrible that Folio is attempting to serve new customers while also producing books that I personally enjoy. Their insistence on not catering solely to my tastes is, frankly, disgusting.

". . . editions of the world's great literature, in a format worthy of the contents, at a price within the reach of everyman."

No - it's NOT April 1st. They've finally flipped - even if it's cheaper than what the Reader's Digest original now goes for.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30365167266&searchurl=pn...

Mrs Reader's Digest Omnichannel has put down her slipcase and become a flip case.

I don't think this is the end of the world. I really don't see this as any different than any other 'Art' book. To me, this expansive catalog makes Folio stretch their minds a bit and will continue to open new doors. I for one, won't buy this, much like Game of Thrones, I have little interest in this production. However; if you told me they were going to make interesting facsimiles of curated playbooks from great NFL offenses, or movie scripts of Wolfman movies, or any other oddity, I would probably be a bit more interested. I for one can see a very interesting gateway here and I find the potential far more intriguing than buying modern books in Folio form, that I generally download to my phone and erase after one use.

>10 boldface:

I was just about to dig out that quote so you saved me the trouble, Jonathan. I believe for the first time Folio have driven a bus through every point of the original mission statement.

great literature (laughs)

format worthy of contents - well that would be akin to a paper magazine, wouldn't it? Shall we say "comic"?

price within the reach of everyman - £150? For a comic?

Folio have at last reached Mrs Omnichannel's goal of emulatiing Reader's Digest.

And for all those who enjoy reading comics I have no wish to spoil your continuing enjoyment. Indeed I confess I have been known to read a few myself (a number of years back, and DC rather than Marvel, admittedly). There are gazillions out there, including thousands of nicely bound editions. I just question Foilo's need to add another one.

>12 folio_books: "Indeed I confess I have been known to read a few myself (a number of years back, and DC rather than Marvel, admittedly)"

Exactly, Glenn. I myself have the complete TinTin - but not from the Folio Society.

I won’t be buying this, but I don’t have a problem with its existence. Folio publishes collections of illustrated children’s stories and numerous collections of illustrated folk tales, legends, and myths from various cultures. This can have a place on the shelf alongside those releases. If someone views comics as American mythology/folk tales told in words and images, I won’t argue with them.

There are plenty of books that still fit the mission statement.

There are food books, gardening books, art books, all done quite often through the years. Those are not literature, so why not comics?

You can see a special publications for 1969 (while Ede was still part of the society) on the devotees wiki, that will show some prices well beyond the standard publications. I will admit; cost of living, in the U.S., does not align the same with the wage increase (be careful how you approach this one), but they're clearly within the realm of cost.

Fantastic! It's about time that Folio credit sequential narrative of words and pictures as literature. Ordered.

Not particularly knowledgeable of this genre, so - are the people, on the whole, spending billions seeing these Marvel movies at the theater the same that would spend $250-300 on a collection of retro-looking comics? For some reason I just can't see it. Probably prejudicial but I imagine it's mostly children to very young adults buying the tickets and popcorn. It seems this product is more of a hardcore fan offering and I doubt they number that many...?

Porn is coming to Folio...

...and I am sure that the old farts will place their orders.

>18 HornyBaggins:

Really? You had to do this?

Marvel is important to a great number of people, myself included. Grew up reading the comics (amongst other books/comics). I'm delighted Folio is embracing the multitude of genres.

I've just pre-ordered a copy for a dear friend who would absolutely love this edition.

Looks like this is the first of a series. From an article in The Verge:

"The Folio Society says that the volume is the first in an ongoing partnership with Marvel Comics, and the next volume is set to come out sometime in the first half of 2020."

Oh yes, a dose of wartime jingoism in garish colours calibrated to 10-year-old minds from almost a century ago is JUST what we lack nowadays.

>22 LolaWalser:

Cynical or not, I did chuckle.

>13 boldface:
I'll pass on Marvel, but would certainly get a FS version of the complete set of Tintin if it comes around :-)

Folio Tintin sounds smashing. Or perhaps Ompa-pa...

Comics aren't my thing, but they certainly culturally significant and no less "literary" than things like Bond. Heck, we forget too often around here that most classics were considered low brow trash in their day. Novels weren't for serious people.

FS needs to be financially stable and if this helps, I'm fine with that. Haven't seen this mentioned before, but: LEs as recent as last year are currently on sale, a worrisome development and a sign of trouble.

I don't know whether there's a market for this or not. I'd love this to be a success for FS, enabling them to make other, more 'deserving' (not my qualification but communis opinio here, whatever it may mean) titles then that's worth it for me. It's not for me, but I won't begrudge fans this edition or belittle them for their fandom as others have done previously.

>26 Jason461:

That's absolutely true. John Adams admitted to his diary about reading these romances and his 'foolish girl like giddiness' and his personal embarrassment about the whole ordeal. We consider intellectual prose what they considered trifling nonsense.

Not something I want to pay $250.00 for,but I am all for Folio printing whatever they can sell as long as the quality of the physical book is kept up to their standards.What would you all think of Dr.Suesse given the Folio treatment?

Seuss?

Folio books called collectors editions come, Game of Thrones with tinfoiled blocks come, Studies in Nature and comics in box come, but Mr John, Dr Seuss would empty my pockets some.

>24 Dr.Fiddy: For me it's a complete set of Locke & Key, Preacher or Harrow County that would do it.

>22 LolaWalser:

OK, you have talked me in to this book.

>24 Dr.Fiddy: I, too, would be very interested in FS Tintin editions!

Looks more like a Taschen than a Folio to me - flat spine, pop culture, bright colors and all.

>9 gmacaree:
I'd say people are concerned that, as the new tastes FS started catering to lately tend to be more on the money-making, mainstream-ish side of things, one day FS might make a switch to these types of books exclusively. Considering the current CEO is actually proud of killing off a book business entirely before, turning a book publisher into a seller of CDs and DVDs, I don't think the concern is too unreasonable. But I admit I did chuckle when I read your post.

>26 Jason461:

Indeed, it's the cultural and political significance of Folio publishing this propaganda item in this historical moment and to such breathless cheerleading of a foreign nation (STAR-SPANGLED SPLENDOUR!!11!! *swoooon*) that I find most striking.

>34 elladan0891: its funny you should mention Taschen as this looks very similar to a Taschen release a few years ago for the 75th anniversary of Marvel Comics, albeit with a facsimile of the first issue. The Taschen release also went through Silver and Bronze Age Marvel, right up to the modern era, so if this is a success we can expect more i think.

i dont have an issue with Folio doing this, as it is, as others have mentioned, only like publishing an art book; some of the artists within (Kirby/Everett) are legends in their field, turning out pages and pages of genre defining work in short periods of time. that said the writing from this era can be a bit clunky.

.. Folio do publish these "cash cows", but then again they publish(ed) Dickens, Shakespeare, and you name the lot for the `n`thent time` often bound in old victorian style wallpaper ..

.. as long as it`s not always, but only sometimes, it`s fine by me ..

.. and i`m awaiting still Alan Moore: `From Hell` from the 2016? survey ..

In my opinion, comics or graphic novels shouldn't be looked down upon.
They can provide readers with an indelible experience, and it's no surprise really if so many of them count as classics - V for Vendetta, Watchmen, and I could include all those Batman classics that left readers in shock. Unfortunately, comics suffer from much prejudice. The Heroes we see on TV or in cinema are dull and watered down to please crowds (mostly kids), when in fact they are dark, somber and tragic in the comics. Just an example: Jim Gordon is a tragic character in the series, yet we barely see him in the movies.

I'm not a fan of Marvel, but I'm sure the book about The Golden Age contains some magic that the majority of us is failing to see. If it were about Batman or something from Alan Moore, I would have bought it in an instant.

>37 Pellias:

Unfortunately, only three Dickens novels remain in the catalogue and they are not part of a complete set. As for Shakespeare, Folio's latest premium venture has resulted in too many unsold copies. On the other hand Mort sold out in a day. It's not rocket science, it's a marvel.

>39 boldface:

Have nothing against Dickens, Shakespeare and the other 'big classics', but for a publisher they are always quite risky. Let's face it, on average everybody and their dog owns a copy already who are into these kind of books and collecting. They are done to death by multiple publishers, republished multiple times in all kind of qualities. And a large number of them is getting circulated on the secondary market, which a fine press publisher also has to compete with. Demand is limited, even if the books are highly regarded, and supply is more or less steady. And people are usually happy with a single (fine) copy of the same book.

The modern cult classics, like Mort, Book of the New Sun, Lovecraft, lack the fine treatment in general, so obviously people don't have them already. They represent a large untapped demand, people who are waiting for their favorite book to appear in a nice copy. Thus they are a much better business case, than republishing Dickens the 100th time.

Therefore, for Folio, it makes sense to be cautious about printing old high profile classics and catering more for modern cult classics. As for the traditional Folio customer base, fine treatment of more obscure and under the radar classics literature make a better case in my opinion, as they haven't been done before, so it is more likely they can sell. And Folio does exactly this, which is good. Shakespeare et al are a money sink for a small publisher in 2019. Niches pay off much better, old or new.

>36 stumc: its funny you should mention Taschen as this looks very similar to a Taschen release a few years ago for the 75th anniversary of Marvel Comics, albeit with a facsimile of the first issue.

Indeed. Now, this may make a few sit up but one of the few non-Folio books I have in my collection is Taschen's behemoth "75 Years of DC Comics", purchased in one of the famous Taschen sales two or three years back. I figured I was safe enough buying it then as there was no chance of Folio doing anything remotely similar ...

>37 Pellias:
“.. and i`m awaiting still Alan Moore: `From Hell` from the 2016? survey ...”

Yes, absolutely!

>35 LolaWalser:

It's not accurate to say this is propaganda. Early comics were certainly political, but they were generally more liberal than the mainstream. They were lobbying (thanks, frankly, to the influence of several Jewish creators) to get the US into WWII to help defeat Hitler. There was a political viewpoint, but that doesn't make it propaganda.

Well it had to come. The FS have been managing the move away from 'great literature affordable by everyman' for some time, and this is the logical development. In amongst the various facsimiles, comics, rehashes etc they do make a nod or two towards their old mission statement, but it does feel increasingly thin.

In the meantime, the LOA has proved a godsend, at least on the American front, and I'm currently enjoying the new translations of Zola's Rougon-Macquart series in Oxford World Classics.

>34 elladan0891: A chuckle? How dare you!

For every Folio Society production that is not a collection of classical Chinese poetry, I kick a puppy and/or small child.

>43 Jason461:

It's not accurate to say this is propaganda. Early comics were certainly political, but they were generally more liberal than the mainstream.

You couldn't be more wrong. "Early comics" were most commonly syndicated newspaper fare and as such resolutely mainstream in outlook. As for politics, most eschewed it directly, although at the same time they endorsed pro-capitalist, consumerist values as a matter of course. But the item in question isn't that "early"--the dates here are 1939-1949, and you can bet it's propaganda writ large: WWII to cold war. Captain America was created specifically for purposes of wartime propaganda, and no American superhero is without stories of battling Nazis, "Japs" and later "commie" monsters in this period.

There are so many references for this--it's actually a well-trodden academic field by now--it's hard to know where to start. This is one book I read most recently on the topic: Comic Art Propaganda: A Graphic History--it may interest as it includes some non-US examples.

I presume most books on the history of comics would have a chapter on their use in the WWII.

Actually, seen from the angle of Folio's (their customers') abiding interest in the WWII, this issue makes more sense than some general branching-out into comics publishing would be.

>47 LolaWalser:

You may well have a point there but I doubt very much that Folio is looking at this venture from that angle!

Heh, probably not. I wonder if this will sell noticeably better in the US than elsewhere? I presume they need the US market very much.

Well, well, well. Disappointed? No, disgusted.

Art Spiegelman's Marvel essay 'refused publication for Orange Skull Trump dig'

Art Spiegelman, the legendary graphic novelist behind Maus, has claimed that he was asked to remove criticism of Donald Trump from his introduction to a forthcoming Marvel book, because the comics publisher – whose chairman has donated to Trump’s campaign – is trying to stay “apolitical”.

Spiegelman, who won a Pulitzer prize for Maus, his story of the Holocaust, has written for Saturday’s Guardian that he was approached by publisher the Folio Society to write an introduction to Marvel: The Golden Age 1939–1949, a collection ranging from Captain America to the Human Torch.

Tracing how “the young Jewish creators of the first superheroes conjured up mythic – almost godlike – secular saviours” to address political issues such as the Great Depression and the second world war, Spiegelman finishes his essay by saying: “In today’s all too real world, Captain America’s most nefarious villain, the Red Skull, is alive on screen and an Orange Skull haunts America.”

After submitting the essay in June, Spiegelman says he was told by the Folio Society that Marvel Comics was trying to stay apolitical, “and is not allowing its publications to take a political stance”. Neither publisher responded to requests for comment from the Guardian, but Spiegelman claims he was asked to remove the sentence referring to the Red Skull or his introduction would not be published. He pulled the essay, placing it instead with the Guardian. (...)

Pandering to Americans is one thing; pandering to Trumpism is a dealbreaker.

>50 LolaWalser: "... because the comics publisher – whose chairman has donated to Trump’s campaign – is trying to stay “apolitical”. "

... and yet by abiding to censorship FS itself became political. Your previous comments were spot on. We can only hope this is a one-off snafu.

>50 LolaWalser: Thanks for the alert to this spineless FS kow-towing to Trump supporter Perlmutter. As a frequent Facebooker, I have just posted the following to the FS Facebook page, with a link to the Guardian article:
"This makes me question, to put it mildly, whether my 30+ year patronage of the Folio Society, buying and enjoying literally hundreds of its splendid books, is now at an end."

>50 LolaWalser: Thanks for the alert to this spineless FS kow-towing to Trump supporter Perlmutter. As a frequent Facebooker, I have just posted the following to the FS Facebook page, with a link to the Guardian article:
"This makes me question, to put it mildly, whether my 30+ year patronage of the Folio Society, buying and enjoying literally hundreds of its splendid books, is now at an end."
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TheFolioSociety/community/?ref=page_internal

Bullying one of very few remaining publishers of quality tangible books into associating with only people of your own political opinion -- this type of thing looks great on the Dems and I'm sure it won't hurt them again in their rematch against the deplorables.

I like your idea of simply not buying from them if it upsets you, and maybe limiting it to that?

>54 pancarre12: Bullying? You flatter me.

Ironic that we've just had a thread about Introductions that nobody reads.
I'm no great admirer of the powers that be at FS, but I very much doubt that they have the slightest sympathy with Trump. Lord Gavron was Labour party, i.e. left-wing, royalty, and Ms Omni is a Labour councillor for a London Borough. It's perfectly normal for a business not to become embroiled in political controversy that will alienate a large segment of their customer base, especially when the copyright holder objects. It was disingenuous of Spiegelman to turn an invitation to comment on a historical "text" into a forum for his own present day politics. He must have known perfectly well that it would be unwelcome, and that he could turn that to his own advantage. He's entitled to his opinion (with which I agree) but he's not entitled to foist it on those whom it might harm.

Haha oh how amusing. As someone that is generally pinned to the right, although I am actually centrally opinionated, I'm shoved to the right because anyone not on board with knee jerk progress is forced there... I've always supported Folio despite their Fabian ties. Give me a good product. If the world shall become like the Greeks and Romans in their peak years of pleasure, I shall sit in my chair, next to my fire and read my books that are by large published by Socialists.

>56 Jayked:

He must have known perfectly well that it would be unwelcome,

I'm not sure this is evident. Obviously he knew he was writing about a property of Marvel's (albeit a property much older than the current owners), but perhaps he actually believes in the much-touted American "freedom of speech"?

and that he could turn that to his own advantage.

But what advantage? He could just as easily, and likely with less embarrassment to himself, have refused to write the essay and published an article about Perlemutter and Trump and why he refused to write the essay.

Incidentally, why do you think publishing his essay would have hurt FS? Do you suppose this is just the beginning of a beautiful friendship between the FS and Marvel?

>21 LondonLawyer:
>58 LolaWalser:

Actually... See above

Well, as the linked article notes, everything is political. Remaining apolitical is a default endorsement of the status quo, which obviously advantages some people rather significantly over others.

i dont see Marvel, at least the output i used to read, as being overtly political, it may have been obliquely, but i would think with a slightly left wing bias (black panther/x men etc)

i definitely dont see FS decision to publish a Golden Age Marvel book as an endorsement of Trump! thats a bit of a stretch!

>61 stumc: I doubt anyone sees publishing the Marvel comic book as FS explicitly endorsing Trump. I certainly don't. What I object to is that, having commissioned the intro from Art Spiegelman, they didn't have the courage to follow through and support him, but instead took timid evasive action (it would seem) just in case Perlmutter objected to that single reference to the "Orange Skull."

>62 davidjbrown10:
It wouldn't just be Perlmutter who'd object; it would be a large number of potential customers for a publisher trying to stay afloat by publishing stuff that's likely to appeal tp people who read with their fingers. Would anyone have objected if FS had turned down an introduction hostile to Obama? It's standard practice for publishers to vet what writers offer them, commissioned or not, down to "correcting" the punctuation of English professors. They're paying for it; it has to suit their purposes.

>63 Jayked: Your guess that "a large number of potential customers" would object to the reference to the Orange Skull is as good (or bad) as my guess that plenty would nod approvingly.

>63 Jayked:

There comes a point when hard-nosed pragmatism and "just-the-bottom-line" defeats its own purpose. Kowtowing to political will for economic reasons isn't necessarily a recipe for success--it certainly isn't a recipe for respect. Also, I don't know why anyone would assume more Folio's customers would have objected to Spiegelman's essay than liked it. In fact, hearing that Folio approached Spiegelman in the first place is at least a little cheering, despite the catastrophic ending.

>62 davidjbrown10:

Agreed.

Well, if I understood the article correctly, the essay will be published in The Guardian tomorrow and I'm sure it will be worth reading whether you are one of the buyers for this edition or not. (It's rather disappointing that they couldn't find anyone better than a Marvel employee to replace Spiegelman.)

It is published so far in their US Edition.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/16/art-spiegelmans-marvel-essay-refus...

>65 LolaWalser:

Roy Thomas is far better suited to write the introduction to this collection than Spiegelman.

>67 betaraybill:

Why?

from The Guardian article "Neither publisher responded to requests for comment..."
Stay tuned.

>68 LolaWalser:

Well, no one alive knows more about Marvel Comics than Rascally Roy Thomas.

He was Marvel's second editor-in-chief after Stan Lee left the position in order to become... I think it was publisher for Marvel, or something like that.

Roy Thomas started his career as a comic book writer in the mid-sixties, and it was in 1972 that he became the second ever EIC for Marvel.

He's always had a huge soft spot for Golden Age comic book characters. Many of the hundreds of comic book issues that he has written center on the 1940s and WWII. He's truly an authority on the Golden Age of comics. Especially Marvel and DC.

I'm not saying that Spiegelman wouldn't have been more than fine. In fact, I look forward to what he did write. But Roy Thomas is the real deal when it comes to Marvel Comics. Like I said, he's probably the leading authority in the world on Marvel Comics in the Golden and Silver Age.

Spiegelman in the Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/17/art-spiegelman-golden-age-superher...

>70 betaraybill:

No offence to the job of an editor or slight on Mr. Thomas' knowledge of the business, but I'd much rather have the perspective on comics of a creative genius like Spiegelman.

>71 FitzJames:

I hope you don't mind if I link that again giving the full title:

Art Spiegelman: golden age superheroes were shaped by the rise of fascism

I actually got up to read this. Some interesting info, I don't really think the orange skull added anything to an otherwise interesting article. Political hacking with a complaint about political hacking, blah, blah, blah, typical really. I'm still not buying this collection, but to think the political atmosphere is worse than ever is a childlike, self-important thought process, built from despair and ignorance. The only difference is, we attack each other like middle schoolers and fascists.

>71 FitzJames:

A good article by Spiegelman. Thanks for the link. May print it out and store it with the book when it arrives as a second introduction.

One factor which may have influenced FS in its decision is the difference in libel laws between the USA and the UK. What passes for fair comment in America can land you in the poorhouse in Britain. Think Daily Mirror vs Liberace, which netted the latter the equivalent of half a million quid. To win a libel suit in the UK the plaintiff need only show that the comment has harmed his reputation. It's up to the defendant to prove that what he said was true. https://saperlaw.com/2010/02/24/saper-law-attorneys-compare-american-and-british...

>75 Jayked:

That's VERY farfetched. Spiegelman hadn't even named Trump. Even if he had, there's no shortage of much more visible and high-level instances of dissing the orange ape--it happens practically every night on American television, for example. Trumpolini is reputedly litigious, but nothing indicates he'd bother pursuing veiled references like this--when would he find the time to golf and tweet otherwise?

This is a deeply disturbing event, to say the least, and the conduct of both Marvel and Folio despicable.

>76 LolaWalser:
What happens on American television is entirely irrelevant to British libel laws, which are draconian. Even a character as unlovely as Evelyn Waugh was able to benefit from them. You had no difficulty interpreting the "veiled" reference, which places Trump with the likes of Hitler and Mussolini, and neither would anyone else called upon to testify that harm had been done to his unenviable reputation. Whether he would bother to take action -- he seems to relish criticism -- is beside the point; a small publisher can't afford to take the risk. Your priority is to stay in business, not to support a political stance that you didn't invite when you asked for the introduction. There is nothing despicable about refusing to take sides in the politics of another country, or in asserting your editorial rights.

>76 LolaWalser:

I’d say deeply disturbing is VERY far fetched.

American television shows will do what they have to do to maintain and increase their audience. They would be unlikely to continue in that way if it lost them their audience.

If some FSDs posts in another thread are to be believed, and no reason not to, we know that Folio’s decision to print some of their books in China has adversely affected sales of those books and may have lost them customers forever; why then, would or should, Folio publish an introduction in any of their books if they consider it a risk that may lose them even one of their customers?

>67 betaraybill:

Couldn't agree more. Looking forward to reading Thomas' intro when I receive this. TBH, was not that impressed by Spiegelman's essay printed in The Guardian.

>77 Jayked:

Your speculations are making the whole affair appear even worse. If Marvel had sued Folio because Spiegelman was--obliquely and very briefly--critical of Trump, there would have been a MAJOR scandal. Marvel may have a rich Trumpoid in chief, but they don't cater to that demographic, and the larger public in the US no less than in the UK is NOT on Trump's side. The very idea that an American company with Marvel's profile would go on public record trying to sue a foreign, much smaller business in the name of protecting Donald Trump (ETA: from mockery!) ought to be too laughable to conceive, let alone seriously defend. We're not talking oil-grabbing mercenaries here.

I'm going to speculate in turn and say that Folio didn't run the risk of litigation. Displeasing a potential partner like Marvel may well appear undesirable before and outside any notion of litigation. I think they caved in simply grasping for more of that sweet American dollar.

>78 bookfair_e:

Now that's some desperate flailing and pulling-stuff-out-of-thin-air. Do you have any evidence Folio gives a damn about some people disliking their use of Chinese printers? Last I heard, they continued to employ them even after the outpourings of outrage in this forum. Imagine that.

As for losing customers, there's no telling who they may have lost or won for what reason. At least we can be sure that no amount of obsequious bending over will win them Twittler, the proud illiterate...

>60 Jason461:

Indeed, exactly.

As is usually the case, The Folio Society will gather greater opprobrium for giving in to a censorious impulse than they ever would have by simply publishing the forward as written.

I might need to buy this collection. From what I read above, it sounds great! It's chalk full of propaganda and I believe it's the most pro Trump comic since the Clinton wedding! Go Folio!

What I can't understand, is how Trump being a complete jackwagon, is any different than any other politician. Why do folks get so worked up over one political jerk to side with any of the others? They're all so gross, it's amazing to me that Trump gets so much attention. I think Obama was equally as gross, and I will admit that I detest the Clinton family, but why are people so obsessed with this man?

I don't think Folio did anything wrong and I think Spielgelman is just another number of political obsessors that deserved to be cut from the intro for a boring and less than original attack on a boring and less than original target.

H.P. Lovecraft
Dashiell Hammett
Robert E. Howard
Jim Thompson
Ian Fleming
... and numerous others, were all considered "trashy" when they were first published, and their works are now considered influential classics. Same with comics.

As rightly pointed out by Uppernorwood and some others, the influence of comic books can not be denied. I haven't decided if I will purchase this or not, but I do value comic books and view them as an artform. I believe the FS was once planning to publish Alan Moore's "From Hell" as a LE. I really wish they would. I also wish they would have included the introduction by Art Spiegelman. Although this brouhaha was apparently a due to Marvel, not the FS. This is also getting a LOT of attention. Perhaps Marvel will rescind and Spiegelman's essay will appear.

>83 astropi:

I'm not sure I've caught up with the times, then, or am ever likely to regarding those five, but I can take a little Mrs. Radcliffe...

I was quite devoted to US comics from around age 7 to 9, albeit more DC than Marvel: come to think of it, maybe even more Tower than Marvel. They didn't lead to anything else, I just gave up on reading for the following seven or eight years. Haven't been tempted to return to the form except for a solitary indulgence in the hardback compendium of Steve Ditko's Creeper, an especial favourite with me at the time, with an aim to touching base with my nine year old self and seeing what I might make of the work nearly fifty years later. It was a mildly intriguing encounter, but I think I'll leave it there.

84: "US comics" is a huge huge field. I think it's a little bit like saying "US books" in that it's rather hard to generalize. I encourage people to explore comic books without prejudice. Of course, comics aren't necessarily for anyone, but from the many amusing comments on here I think some FS members just outright dismiss comics books as "childish" which is rather asinine in my opinion.

Intro change is now news in the Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2019/08/19/art-spiegelman-says...

No new info that I can see, but the news will reach more FS customers in the US.

I wasn’t going to buy it anyway (too pricey and I don’t see the point of a collection of comics that don’t tell an ongoing or complete story), but am disappointed in FS’s decision not to publish the original intro.

>85 astropi:

Was I among the "asinine"? My acquaintance with "US comics" is confessedly largely limited to the cross-section - it seemed a fairly generous cross-section, which is to say that rarely was my appetite whetted for a title that never appeared for sale - of commercial offerings from DC, Marvel and Tower which found their way to a newsagent in a small Norfolk market town in the late 1960s. I was around eight at the time, so the counter-attractions among "British comics" would have been Dandy, Beano, Eagle etc.: any underground or counter-cultural endeavours also current would not have found their way to the shelves of the said small-town newsagent. From what I recall of their letters pages the "US comics" seemed to have a goodly proportion of adult readers.

With no wish to diminish anyone else's fulfilments, I admit to finding it hard to imagine myself deriving much satisfaction today from a narrative delivered largely by way of drawn images. Part at least of the reason is that the form is one - opera is another - with which, given the brevity of life, I doubt I would ever develop an acquaintance beyond the superficial.

87: I thought your responses were quite thoughtful.
It's funny you bring up opera, since the analogy had crossed my mind as well. For the record I am an opera fan - if you ever get a chance to go to the MET do so, it's quite spectacular.

>85 astropi:
Right. I wish people would give them a chance.

Watchmen ranks among the best books I've read. The economy of words and the power of the 'illustrations' have left an indelible mark on me. It was in fact the book that made me interested in watching behind-the-scenes documentaries for almost anything. For the story was so well constructed that I wanted to understand how the mind works during creative processes.

I'm a huge Batman fan too and have lots of comics. I wish people knew that there is a difference between the Batman onscreen and the Batman in comics. Movies or cartoons bank on movements, sounds, and other effects to draw certain reactions from the audience, whereas comics rely not only on the artist's drawing skills, but also on his choice of what to draw. (In Dark Victory, for example, Dick Grayson's parents' deaths are conveyed to us in a way very different from the movies. Likewise for Harvey Dent's attack in Long Halloween. I could stress upon it further, but I would go and on...). In brief, comics and graphic novels shouldn't be taken for granted.

>22 LolaWalser: Oh yes, a dose of wartime jingoism in garish colours calibrated to 10-year-old minds from almost a century ago is JUST what we lack nowadays.

Because whenever adults get their hands on almost a century-old comics for ten-year-old boys they always get an insatiable urge to invade a country or drop some nukes on a city or two. Just like the poor souls who read The Lord of the Rings and were too careless not to dismiss it as right-wing propaganda - they all become rabid monarchists with a longing for good ol' feudalism. Myself, I made a mistake playing Carmageddon when I was in my teens in mid-90s. Now in my free time I cruise the streets in my car, looking for unsuspecting pedestrians to run over when nobody's looking.

Anyone not familiar with the world of comics could do worse than pick up a copy of Scott McCloud's 'Understanding Comics'. A sort of text book in comic form in which an insider explains how comics work.

And I would echo >85 astropi: and >89 Kainzow: in that one can't really generalise about comics. There is a huge range of stories out there for people of all ages and interests.

Just a small selection off the top of my head which one could check out to get an idea of what's out there:

Bone;
Cerebus;
A Distant Soil;
Love and Rockets;
Preacher;
Nausicaa;
Akira;
Asterix;
The Invisibles;
Strangers in Paradise

All very different but all, I think, well worth a read.

89, 91: Yeah, Watchman was phenomenal. Truly a great read, not just a great comic. The Long Halloween, I honestly enjoyed more than many an Agatha Christie novel (it is in essence a "murder mystery"). Great list, I would also add the following:


The Dark Knight Returns
Fables
The Forever War (hard to find)
The Golden Age
Kingdom Come
Locke & Key (as someone else also mentioned)
The Ring of the Nibelung
Sandman
Stardust (originally a comic book before the novel)
... and many more

A few very popular comics I did not particularly like include "The Walking Dead" and "The Boys". Funny thing, I found The Boys boring as a comic, but the show is quite enjoyable! Usually it's the reverse.

>91 Cat_of_Ulthar:

Agreed, Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud is an outstanding book. Highly readble, and really helps to appreciate the art of comics for us non artist types.

I have had three copies of that book, the first two found homes with artists I have know throuhout the years who went on to graduate degrees in graphics or other art fields.

http://scottmccloud.com/2-print/1-uc/index.html

http://scottmccloud.com

I expect there's very little nostalgia in the UK for this particular set of comics because they weren't generally available at the time, what with wartime blockades and paper rationing.
Where I went to school in Edinburgh, elementary school teachers treated comics in general as trash, with a particular animus against American ones. British schoolkids graduated from juvenile stuff such as the Beano to teen comics which weren't comics at all, but written stories with a single illustration. Being told not to read American comics pretty much guaranteed that you would try to do so. I found only one outlet that sold them, a seedy little newsagent's run by a guy with a foreign accent. Stock was limited to the basics -- Superman, Batman, Gene Autry. I tried it and found it dull. Bop! and pow! were poor substitutes for the real thing, the constant violence and stage villains became a bore, and a child doen't notice the finer points of technique. By the end of the 50s the prose teen magazines had become graphic comics, and American-style comics were introduced.

Pre-WWII in Europe "American comics" meant first of all Disney (Mickey Mouse above all), but also Alex Raymond (Flash Gordon), Lee Falk (Mandrake, The Phantom) and so on. They were tremendously popular and demonstrably influenced the local talent everywhere.

As a teenager in the eighties I could still partake of the rich comics culture in Europe, notably the francophone and Italian production (ETA: and Spanish-language, another great tradition). In my subjective assessment, American superhero genre figured in a relatively minor role for us, especially in print media. I'm sure Donald Duck easily outsold any of the superheroes (the Italian DD franchise in particular is legendary). Partly it was probably due to the format--meagre American "skinnies" overloaded with ads never really took hold in Europe.

For the later generations, I suppose the influence of Hollywood and the wave of superhero movies changed things crucially. At least as far as awareness goes. It's become very rare that I meet a young person interested in comics--and then, it's usually only manga they read. (Not saying this is bad, just an observation.)

Just a couple of things to add.

Walter Simonson's "THOR" run is an incredible, fully fleshed out "novel" in comic book form that combines Norse mythology, high fantasy, science fiction, and just good old fashioned superheroics.

That beings said...

Little Lulu, as written by John Stanley, rules all.

:)

>96 betaraybill: I will second the recommendation for Walter Simonson's Thor comics, and they have been released in a graphic novel format, handy for people like me who don't collect comics or have suitable storage for individual comics.

The Spiegelman controversy even made it in a german newspaper: https://taz.de/Marvel-vs-Art-Spiegelman/!5619448/ The don't mention FS, but the publication title. I get FS marvel advertisments on the website though. They seem to advertise this book quite aggressively.

As there can't be a ying without a yang, this needs a matching DC collection at some point. The Taschen ones were made for the two publishers.

Having said that, this change in strategy from FS is obviously an attempt to improve their revenue mix. It main run against the original ethos of the publisher, but as they are struggling...

Also, if they are going to start with graphic novels, well, there are far more literary ones than the original pulps. Watchmen, Persepolis and the forementioned Maus come to mind.

Those who are fans of comics can't understand why others may not rate them particularly (at all!) compared to reading pure words, whilst those on the other side of the fence can't understand what on earth comic/graphic novel fans see in them. Nothing new there then.

Gross generalisation, I'm sure!

And, then, there are those who value highly both!

>101 drasvola:

Yes, there are several camps here. I am with >100 Willoyd: on this and that is consistent with the original vision of the Folio Society and on that tack alone, the Folio Society has done very well and can have a bright future in that market alone.

The management at Folio have decided to go down the everyman's market, offering relatively recently written books, much more in pop science and now the cartoon genre.

Whilst this corporate expansion is perhaps aimed at the U.S. Market, I will sound the warning bell on capers such as these.

I have been around long enough to witness big names in business sectors expand them seemingly wake up to shrinking margins then retraction, followed up by the universal vision of a future CEO who suddenly restructures to a back to basic focus on core business.

I can see the writing on the wall before this vision has even begun to get traction.

>102 LesMiserables:

I don't see a problem with the relatively recently written books.

Never Let Me Go was published in 2005. A few years later Folio offered its own edition of the book. It was well received and quite a lot of us here bought the book and liked it. Nobody really complained.

Admittedly, Folio is doing it a lot more these days, but the books are far from rubbish. They are either already classics or are bound to become classics. I think Folio doesn't want to be seen as another version of Easton Press or similar 'antiquated' publishers. Their illustrations are being more modern, they are taking more risk with illustrators, and their choice of books spans over a wide variety. Also, as a publisher they are not supposed to only offer books that we've heard about or have already read. There's a lot of undiscovered gems in their catalogue. ('undiscovered' in that they are quite not well known to the general public, though they may be classics to the genre afficionados. Get Shorty is an example. Good Behaviour is another).

As someone has said here, Victorian classics have been favoured over and over again by publishers like Folio. It's about time other more modern classics get the Folio treatment. With the way things are going, I won't be surprised if books from Jhumpa Lahiri, Jeffrey Eugenides or Haruki Murakami start getting published in the coming years. I'll be glad then. (Of course, I reckon there will be other classics being published).

>103 Kainzow:

It may be as you say but as Jonathan pointed out in >10 boldface: above, we have been led to believe over the years through their marketing that they do...

". . . editions of the world's great literature, in a format worthy of the contents, at a price within the reach of everyman."I

Not so, I'd argue today.

>104 LesMiserables:
Steve
I don't think it is appropriate to apply a 72 year old business establishment dictum to modern market conditions.

>105 wcarter:
Maybe not, but the pretense remains.

>106 LesMiserables:

The most important thing is, they don't cut ties with their heritage. Folio has room for multiple client types. As someone that loved their older memoirs, biography and history books, (albeit bland design, the paper and text were great) I noticed that they have always published some modern literature. Since it constantly changes, they can keep the good ones and let the pop die when the next group comes out. They should not be constantly printing 4 sci-fi, 2 modern lit, a comic book, an art or science book, 2 modern history writers and 1 classic title... But, they can move that number to a sustainable 2 across the board, and ultimately print great books all of the time.

One result of the decision to include recent works by e.g. Ishiguro is that authors of the preceding period who would have been coming up for consideration have been pretty much frozen out. There's a token Murdoch, an early Golding, and not much else. You do have, or will shortly, the complete Ian Fleming, Patricia Highsmith, Agatha Christie, SF authors of limited ability, but no Cheever, no Heinrich Boll, Elizabeth Taylor, any number of worthy candidates. I think you can say that the original aim of the Society is dead and buried.

>108 Jayked:
I would like to see more Murdoch, Golding, Swift, Mann, Calvino, Hrabal, Hoffman and even Pynchon or Bernhard. I made these feelings clear in the survey.

Although I disagree on “the original aim of the Society is dead and buried” - because didn’t we recently see Hesse published. They can be few and far between, but modern classics do get published by FS - which is my interpretation of the vision.

If FS had stayed publishing the old classics: Dickens, Austen ect it would have also failed in its vision. Books “worthy of merit” are more common these days but the mass amount of books makes them harder to find & curate. Simply publishing man booker winner would not suffice.

So if we’ve established that the society needs to be dynamic, it will continue to be polarising to customers. There are many FS books I find that are not worthy of literary merit, old and new, but when FS publishes one I approve of, like the deptford trilogy, it is worth sticking around for because the enjoyment it brings me outweighs any gripes I have with the direction.

In a dream world, FS would publish all my favourite authors but this will never happen and hoping it will can only lead to disappointment - so I urge you reading this to relish in the books you love that they do publish and cherish this dearly.

>105 wcarter:

You are, of course, right and times have changed out of all recognition since 1947.

I have no objection to publishing modern works per se if they have achieved a general recognition of excellence. What, I think, has jolted some of us oldies (and I don't include Steve, aka LesMiserables, in this category) out of our comfort zone is the sudden lurch in this direction, and towards many more books chosen specifically to appeal to the North American market, since Lord Gavron's passing. Nothing wrong, of course, with offering books from around the world - indeed the Folio Society have always included the best world literature in their lists. it's more the sudden change of emphasis that has been unsettling to us fossils. We joined a "Society" years ago in the expectation of a certain product and now that product is not quite the same. (Oh dear! I seem to have aged twenty years since I started writing this. I am, in fact, quite young, really - I listen to the wireless and tune in to television programmes on the B.B.C. quite often. My son has a computer and listens to pop music.)

I have, actually, benefited in being introduced by the Folio Society to works with which I had previously been unacquainted - for example, the excellent Riddley Walker - excellent in both content and Folio treatment. Previously, my knowledge of Russell Hoban had been restricted to How Tom Beat Captain Najork and His Hired Sportsmen, a firm favourite with my children many years ago.

Well, it's 7.15 p.m., nurse has brought me my ovaltine, and it's already past my bedtime, so I'll say goodnight.

>109 Twas_Brillig:
I don't disagree with you main points, but for writings of the latter part of the 20th c. they've on the whole chosen to ignore merit in favour of popular genres, and jumped to publishing worthy living authors. With mixed success. For every Midnight's Children there's an Oscar & Lucinda or a Disgrace that hangs around the list for what seems like a decade. It's a risky technique because fame can be fleeting, and anyone who has recently bought the original may not wish to splurge on a second copy for the sake of the illustrations.

>105 wcarter: I don't think it is appropriate to apply a 72 year old business establishment dictum to modern market conditions.

I've been dying to say - not even when the dictum is a sound one?

>110 boldface: What, I think, has jolted some of us oldies (and I don't include Steve, aka LesMiserables, in this category) out of our comfort zone is the sudden lurch in this direction, and towards many more books chosen specifically to appeal to the North American market, since Lord Gavron's passing.

And, as a definite oldie, that's the other thing I've been dying to say. Sudden, and brutal. During the last few weeks, for the first time in 45 years, I've had to give serious consideration to whether I want to continue being a customer.
I do agree with >110 boldface: about being introduced to new works I hadn't previously heard of. But hasn't that always been the case with Folio? "the beauty of its books, the wisdom of its choices ".

I think the telling time for me will be the next couple or so major releases - Autumn and Christmas. I'll be in a better position to judge if the dilution in quaiity (imo of course) is limited or if it represents the future direction of the Folio Society.

>112 folio_books:

I find it hard to argue about the dilution of quality when the Spring release featured Anne Carson's translation of the Fragments of Sappho with the original facing Greek in letter press. I cannot imagine a work such as Fragments of Sappho being published at the beginning of your 45 years with FS. So, I see it as a more of an embrace of extreme works from both ends of the literary spectrum.

And, by the bye, I own the Sappho and highly recommend it.

>112 folio_books:
Glenn,
You couldn't stop being a "customer", its in your blood!

I actually think the quality of books produced by the FS is now superb, but the prices have risen faster than the quality and inflation, and the range of titles has widened dramatically.

Marvel comics do not interest me as I have never heard of any of their heroes, but some of their modern science fiction does, and they still print the classics.

So far, not including LE's, the list has been diverse. What has been missing, is classics that are not reprints. Based on the sales of Crime and Punishment and the recent LE Count of Monte Cristo, I think the market is still there. But, overall Folio is trying to mix something up?

Catch-22
Thunderball
If Not, Winter
Anansi Boys
Life in the English Country House
Something Wicked this way Comes
The Notebooks of Da Vinci
The Secret Agent
The Time Machine and The Island of Dr Moreau
Mayflower
Hornblower (2)
The Selfish Gene
The Best of Dorothy Parker

Game of Thrones

Calvino - Italian Folktales
The Travels
The Prophet (2)
Get Shorty
The Murder of Roger Ackroyd
The Longest Day
Sophie's World
The Iliad
The Odyssey
Ubik

Marvel

>113 podaniel: And, by the bye, I own the Sappho and highly recommend it.

So do I. If the future programme contains more gems such as that and a bit less pop culture I'll be content.

>115 The_Toad_Revolt_of84: So far, not including LE's, the list has been diverse.

Just quickly running through your list I find no fewer than nine reprints of previous Folio publications which, in itself, is worrying.

>114 wcarter: the range of titles has widened dramatically.

It's the expanding range which mostly worries me, Warwick. Where do they go after adding comics to the repertoire?

>114 wcarter: Marvel comics do not interest me as I have never heard of any of their heroes, but some of their modern science fiction does, and they still print the classics.

I'm not averse to good SF and there are still some good titles to explore. I do question the love affair with Ray Bradbury, looking at his titles on my shelf - Fahrenheit 451, Martian Chronicles, Something Wicked and Illustrated Man make for a more extensive selection of work than most "modern"-ish authors but I see on social media they are asking for suggestions for the next in the series. (Dandelion Wine will be proposed by at least one member of this group). It's just a bit much. The classics have been well covered so far and are pretty much at the point where they can only find reprints of earlier productions, or "second editions", to fill that particular slot. So far we're avoiding non-fiction such as science (surely plenty of scope left there?) and history, a particular passion of mine. But I find a distinct downward trend in their history titles lately, largely uninspired same-old stuff such as the world wars (I can't be the only one who passed saturation point a long time since).

Re-reading this I'm conscious I seem to be making the case for publishing only titles that appeal to me. While, of course, that would be very nice, ever since I took the momentous decision in the mid-2000s to abandon my quest to collect every Folio book ever published I have not felt constrained to buy everything in each new release. Accordingly, I'm usually quite content to simply ignore their publishing "mistakes" and carry on. What I'm actually concerned about is that the new, evidently highly profitable, ventures become the focus of their attention at the expense of their more traditional areas and that the latter may eventually die of strangulation. When I see signs of that coming I'll be gone. That is why from now on I'll be looking more anxiously than before at the new programmes.

Finally, a quote I've used before but which sums up the vast difference between the old Folio Society I grew up with and the new, money-grabbing version. This from Folio 21, referring to Hermsprong by Robert Bage, published in 1960:

"An example of the 'unpopular' title which we feel must be included in a programme from time to time, both for its intrinsic merit and to give balance. 'Hermsprong' is a brilliant novel, but fulfilled all our expectations as an extremely poor seller."

>116 folio_books:

I fully agree with the history selections being less than inspired. For me at least, most modern writers will just be replaced by other modern writers as we change what we think about past generations. Sometimes it's evidence based, but mostly it's ever changing research that perhaps concludes only what the author wants. To me, they are well written, perhaps well researched, but replaceable and will be replaced at some point. I want the raw history, poisoned with the ridiculousness of the time, and I will sift through their opining and notions about themselves or their predecessors. Science is just the same for me. I do read modern history, and don't get me wrong, I still buy them, but there's a lot out there that hasn't been touched.

The Antiquities/Josephus
Manetho
Berossus
Nestor the Chronicler
Sima Qian

I don't really need to list them all, but there's a load of them, print them all in one box if you'd like, but print them... Because Loeb is the only one printing those classics and not the Far Eastern that I know of, but they are still in a format I could really do without.

>114 wcarter:

The following links to Australian sources might change some perceptions.

https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/7373764

https://comicoz.com

>117 The_Toad_Revolt_of84: I want the raw history, poisoned with the ridiculousness of the time.

That's my poison, too. Folio used to claim all their history was "contemporary" (written during the time or not long after, by a participant or witness). Over a longish period that decayed away to almost nothing under pressure from works by professional (or not so professional) historians which were unknown when I first joined and for probably twenty years after.

>118 drasvola:
I am not against comics, as I read them a lot when younger, and still enjoy some. I actually own lovely anthologies of Asterix, The Far Side and For Better or For Worse, but I really have never heard of any of these Marvel characters, and have no real interest in reading them.

This seems to be transitioning into a thread about Folio's direction. One thing I would point out is that A LOT of stuff is about to become public domain in the US and, correspondingly, I would expect a lot of work from the first half of the 20th century to start coming out.

As an aside: How is it that they haven't ever put out The Wasteland and other T.S. Eliot (unless I missed it somehow). It's right up their alley (and certainly mine) and it's been public for a while.

>121 Jason461: FS did an edition of Eliot's Four Quartets in 1968 if you're interested in that one...

i cannot think of a single business that could stick to a 70 year old business plan without at least a few adjustments

Funny that a thread about comics leads to this topic as the comic business has had to change its focus numerous times to survive.

Votes for businesses come in the form of dollars. I cant even count anymore the number of businesses I appreciated and supported that no longer exist. Adapt or die is the rule.

I also would bring up the number of times I have seen a title released that was met with approved but deemed " too expensive, I'll wait for it to go on sale or just never buy it"

It sounds like a few devotees would prefer Folio to go under if they don't publish the titles they see as having some sort of redeeming value that is truly always in the eye of the beholder.

>123 devilsisland:
I cannot think of one either, but I don't think that's the point.

Take coca cola for example, they do coca cola really well. They do new coke really badly.
Folio do classic books really well: it fits. Comics? In hardcover slipcase?I

Worse examples. Woolworths do Woolworths really well. They don't do hardware stores well.

Do they change? Yes, but change for good only happens when they stick to what they know and what they have built there reputation on.

There are a litany of broken companies who over extended and destroyed themselves.

Coca Cola owns and distributes a million different soft drinks, fits my point to a t.

I understand how you feel, I've felt other companies that I like have betrayed their business model. I just dont think this is that big a betrayal and is ultimately a necessary one.

I did not order Game of Thrones but I'm glad many were so excited for it.

I wont order Marvel either, but I am happy that others are excited for it.

If they do Stephen Kings Dark Tower series I will buy it in a second.

And the chance of them doing Dark Tower possibly go up when these others do well.

>125 devilsisland: I would buy Dark Tower immediately. Same with Misery.

On the other hand, Laszlo Krasznahorkai please. The man is a devil in sheep's clothing with his writing. I would love to see more Eastern European literature here, since French presses are already picking them up a lot lately.

>162 drasvola:
What a great idea - I would like to see more translated literature too.

And now Taschen is entering the fray:-
See here.

>128 wcarter:

It suits Taschen better.

>128 wcarter:
That's the gimped version of the original limited edition released a year ago, which had facsimile inlays of comics, letters and other documents. And signed by the man himself. (Sold out in a day after he sadly passed away, predictably.)

130: It should also be noted the limited edition was an insane $3000... who can afford that??
Also limited to 1000 copies so it really is not "that" rare at least by book standards. But it sold out as you noted, predictably, and Taschen made a cool $3million.

> 131
The LE started at £1,000. The price was jacked up in two steps, the second time after Stan Lee passed away. Still a lot of money, although now it is going for much more due to the crazy comic fans. It is the ultimate Marvel book after all which will never be surpassed (as long as signatures are important).

132: Even a "starting" price of £1,000 is still super expensive, far less than $3000 and it seems a bit crummy of them to raise the price after he passed...

"It is the ultimate Marvel book after all which will never be surpassed"
Not quite sure that's true... are you saying it is the best book on Marvel comics and primarily because it has Stan Lee's autograph? Is there any difference between the very expensive LE and the unlimited edition? To be fair, Stan Lee signed many comics and other items, so his signature is not particularly rare.

>125 devilsisland:

I don't agree.

The analogy is was making is that Coca Cola is and was the main offering and when they changed it to new coke they got hammered. (It is inconsequential that they also sell other things.)

So Folio have sold their main offering > ". . . editions of the world's great literature, in a format worthy of the contents, at a price within the reach of everyman." for many years. (It is inconsequential that they also sell other publisher's books occassionally.)

You could argue that they have changed their main offering to . . . editions of literature, in a format worthy of the contents, at a price within the reach of some.

Look, and if that's the way they are going, good luck to them. But I baulk at the pretense that they are who they say they are thesedays, for they are clearly are still using that tagline...

Editorial Director, Tom Walker, says: ‘I am delighted with this new (collectable) series. It clearly demonstrates our commitment to Charles Ede’s founding principle for The Folio Society, to produce “editions of the world’s great literature, in a format worthy of the contents, at a price within the reach of everyman”. The books maintain our dedication to the highest editorial, artistic and production standards at an attractive price.’

>134 LesMiserables:

You are showing (betraying) your age.

Expecting the original Folio Society ethos to remain static ad infinitum is unrealistic and a certain recipe for obscurity and bankruptcy. What you and I consider to be 'the world's great literature' is clearly a reflection of our ages (note: I strongly suspect we are in the same age demographic) and FS is correct to recognize that new classics arise with each succeeding generation. The millennial generation clearly has a different concept of what 'classic literature' is, even if I am not personally attracted to the fantasy/horror/post-apocalypse genre of literature.

The price issue is, in reality, a non-issue. Every book published by the FS does not have to fall within a well-defined price range and it is certainly not a sin to publish deluxe, limited editions which may not 'be within the reach of everyman'. So what? Buy what you can afford and succumb to an occasional splurge if something in particular captures your collecting fancy. The FS will continue to publish an astonishing number of wonderful books each year which are certainly affordable for most FSDs.

Bottom line: Expanding the range of what FS will publish as classic literature and offering fine and private press books in a wide price range will expand the FS audience and attract the younger demographic necessary to keep the FS financially afloat. If the FS rigidly adhered to Charles Ede's founding credo it would not survive. No one wins in that scenario.

135: Well said. "Great literature" is certainly in the eyes of the beholder. Granted, there are books that have "universal acclaim", but what does that really mean? Does that mean people enjoy it? Academics laud it? Maybe a bit of both. I do think the FS does still publish "the world's great literature" it's just that not all of it (or even most of it) is meant to excite any one person.

There was a recent piece in The Grauniad concerning the evolution of language which parallels the discussion of what we consider to be 'classics':

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/aug/15/why-its-time-to-stop-worrying-ab...

Basically, it's just life doing its thing. I suggest we take heart and look forward to future 'classics' :-)

Ah yes, if only there was an example of a time when no one could understand each other, and destruction ensued.

As has been demonstrated on here multiple times, when adjusting for inflation, prices haven't really changed.

>138 The_Toad_Revolt_of84: *eyeroll* Language is not and has never been static. It changes, as does everything. Art also changes.

The Bible is fairy tales, my good man. :)

And Folio's first comic book was the Holkham Bible.

>141 Jayked:
Oh so true!
Great book also.

Ah, that's right... I forgot. You's all be edumacated and smartlike knowers of duh troofs.

How like, Ovid says it be? Or, Darwin says it be... You know, the hair from the moon landing on earf sort of odds.

Interesting topic and discussion: I would buy Tintin and the only other comic series I used to read were Garfield as a kid (but I wouldn’t be tempted to buy that I'm afraid). Tintin would be great as I want to start collecting them in hardcover.

Some millennials I spoke to last year in their early twenties told be that Harry Potter and Toy Story are classic films and had never heard of Top Gun or Back to the Future.

>144 ironjaw: I would also buy Tintin and also Astrix. The former one I only saw the animated movies, but later I borrowed from my cousin as soon as he was finished reading them.

As a millennial myself I wouldn't call the Harry Potter movies classics, but I would agree with Toy Story being a classic. The first one is now 24 years old and was revolutionary in its use of animation. I love the back to the future movies, but I'm not that big of fan of Top Gun.

The problem is our very subjective definition of classics. For example I consider the Never Ending Story a classic, but it's a children's book and fantasy which by some definitions doesn't fall into classics at all. I think the Marvel comic books published by FS are classics in their genre (I haven't read them as they are/were not that big in Germany, but I enjoy the marvel movies). There are definetky some classics I'm not interested in at all. I don't think it's to the detriment of anybody that FS is publishing this book. After all of they fail as a business there are no more new books by them neither classics nor other books.

I just received my copy--would be interested in others' reaction to it. To be honest, I was not planning to purchase this until there was the big brouhaha over the introduction. I still would not purchase it except for that controversy. This strikes me as one of the oddest FS productions that I have seen (and handled). The pages have a very weird feel to them.

I have received mine as well. My first impression is not so much about the book (peculiar as a FS production) but the box in which it comes. They must have run out of golden foil inside and out. True, the 1939-49 era is known as the "golden age" of comics, but here they have gone overboard. The designer, Marco D'Alfonso, gets due credit for the work. The whole production is a bit garish.

The book itself is printed in a sort of paper covered it seems by some plastic substance that feels weird to the touch and has a yellowish hue which, again, might seek to resemble some reference to a golden era. A very hefty volume. Although there is a table of contents with page indications, the pages are not numbered, making it a bit difficult to find the place. As to the introduction, a complete disappointment. So much better if the Spiegelman piece had been printed. I'm keeping a separate printout of it as reference. The facsimile of the first Marvel comic book is fine, but it has an artificial feel to it.

Overall, you might come to the conclusion that I don't like this foray into comics initiated by FS, but that is not the case. The value, in my opinion, comes from the initiative itself. The recognition by FS that comics are a worthwhile area for FS treatment. I welcome and applaud the step taken. I just hope they will be printing and binding any future productions (From Hell, remember?) with quality in mind and less fancy.

For the record, printed in Italy by Graphicom.

>147 drasvola: "the recognition by FS that comics are a worthwhile area for FS treatment. I welcome and applaud the step taken. I just hope they will be printing and binding any future productions (From Hell, remember?) with quality in mind and less fancy."

I agree, there is probably some classics or historical oddities to be found before the current comic boom or in european comics. However, i wish they would go really over the top and take an iconic comics and give it a LE treatment. There is a niche somewhere for a >300$ edition of "The Killing Joke".

Edit : One could argue there is a niche for everything after witnessing the Herefordshire going OOP or the current Taschen Ferrari Sumo LE monstruosity ...

There is a niche somewhere for a >300$ edition of "The Killing Joke".

No doubt! The world isn't going to run out of misogynistic well-heeled swine and incels anytime soon.

By the way, Alan Moore is apparently less of an immature creep than many of his fans:

https://www.inverse.com/article/14967-alan-moore-now-believes-the-killing-joke-w...

“I thought it was far too violent and sexualised a treatment for a simplistic comic book character like Batman and a regrettable misstep on my part.”

>147 drasvola:

Interesting perspective, thanks. I don't see the attraction of "deluxing" From Hell though. {Edited to correct artist's name} Eddie Campbell's a hack IMO and the story is a complete cliché--one might say a ripoff.

Generally speaking, how about art (in any medium) that doesn't focus on torture and murder of women quite so much?

>149 LolaWalser:

What would anyone talk about if a good torturing or murdering didn't occur to the world's favorite brand of the world's favorite species?

>149 LolaWalser:

I wish you could not throw insults around. I plucked that example as one of the most well-known single issue comic, won an Eisner price and because the Joker character is more and more popular with an upcoming critically-acclaimed movie.

I am going to continue to comment as I see fit, and if that bothers anyone, the site has a blocking function.

The Joker is a joke, as is Batman, and it's no coincidence that they are most popular with a certain narrow male demographic. As Alan Moore eventually recognised, "darkening" the silly superhero genre was an artistic mistake--but it certainly reassured a type of manchildren that it's okay to like comics even past one's 12th birthday. Because these come with (more) female objectification, (more) nudity (female almost exclusively, although we were treated to the sight of Batman's dick recently), even more explicit flamboyant violence, and of course sadistic misogyny, they are supposedly more "serious" than their naive origins. A few grimaces of white-man-angst and that's moral dilemmas and soul-searching done.

No one denies the commercial success of this faux-deep crap. But then, no one denies the commercial success of junk food either.

As for the latest movie being "critically acclaimed", it's also been critically panned, and how. More disturbingly, the families of the victims of the Aurora shooting (the site of a massacre in a movie theatre) felt prompted to voice concern about the glorification of the "fed-up" individual who takes his psychopathy out on other people. That theatre won't be showing this film.

Families of Victims and Survivors of Aurora Shooting Address Joker Film & Ask Studio to Be Responsible

One might wonder what would be the response if we saw as many women and people of colour as white men expressing their "dissatisfaction" with their lives by massacres? Would the comic book violence seem as sexy and glamorous then? Would it be defended as "art"? Would a female or a black Joker be embraced and idolised by white dudebros as avatars?

I think not. I think the special glorification of the white male villain/negative character is due to the fact that we all--and white men with a special emphasis and significance--have been super-successfully culturally programmed with the notion that whatever white men do is worthy of special focus, praise and justification, so that no comparison with women or people of colour etc. is even possible.

>152 LolaWalser:

That is a passionate disdain you have. The comments on the comments: Destructive, maybe. Crazy, certainly a little. Helpful... Well, if it makes you feel better.

Do you think that a white male making a black male into a sadistic murderer would draw questions? I think it would. I think because of all the hatefilled attackers, a white man might avoid using anyone but a white man to do the evil. If you want cheesey comics to fit The diversity of the world, you'll need more diversity in the writers. Otherwise, who cares?

Mass shootings are done by race in the States almost equivalent to population percentages. Women seem to kill family members more than they involve themselves in mass shootings, so you're on point with part of that comment.

Entirely off-topic as this thread has deranged anyway... Apologies in advance.

>149 LolaWalser:, >152 LolaWalser: you're free to comment however you see fit, of course. However, it does not seem you are doing yourself or others any favours by putting this much energy and time into a personal vendetta against an entire genre.

Others can block you, of course, but you could also walk away and ignore the thread via the x in the group page. Don't care for a book? Ignore the thread and let those who do discuss it. Polarisation is destructive in any community. This no longer is a healthy discussion and I will ignore this thread as of this post.

>148 Niurn:

My point is that the wide field of comics ought to be treated as literature. Admittedly, there's good and not so good literature.

>149 LolaWalser:

As you know very well, Lola, there's more than superheroes in comics. Perhaps Maus is a better second choice for FS to try.

>155 drasvola:

I'm not invested in the FS publishing choices and have no preference regarding any comics they may or may not publish in the future. I admit (as has come up in the past when the topic of publishing "deluxe" editions of comics came up) that personally I fail to see what a Folio treatment does for comics that a sturdy trade hardcover would fail to do, but that's a subjective take.

As to the superhero genre, first, let's recall I responded to someone else's digression about The Killing Joke--a notorious item that at the time of its publication represented the acme of misogynistic sadism in mainstream comic publishing and is still held dear particularly by a segment of white male fanbase who rejoices in entertainment that demeans women.

Of course, there are other heroes and other stories in the genre (there were even later attempts to compensate for the damage The Killing Joke inflicted), but you won't see them glorified and celebrated like the misogynistic dudebro fare. At least, not yet. (And certainly not in this group ever.)

In any case, while I stopped being a habitual reader of the superhero genre with the end of my childhood, I remain an occasional one; I also watch the movies if occasion arises. In short, while I have general criticisms of the genre, it's specifically the misogynistic, alt-right, white male supremacist content I object to.

This type of black and white, with us or against us language seems unlikely to create good discussion. Specifically:

"The world isn't going to run out of misogynistic well-heeled swine and incels anytime soon"

...

"misogynistic dudebro fare"

This would make sense if it was just universally regarded as sexist trash, but the general reception seems to have been more moderate:

"Many critics consider the graphic novel to be the definitive Joker story and one of the best Batman stories ever published."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke

It's an extremely influential comic, which apparently even influenced Tim Burton's films. It has received some critique, but jumping down someone's throat for even suggesting that it be given the fine treatment seems a bit much.

>157 HarpsichordKnight:

"General reception" is misleading, when the fanbase is still (and at the time of publication even more so) so dominantly white men of a certain age and outlook. It's like saying that "many critics" on IMDB show an inordinate fondness for macho man saves the universe fare, whizz-bang explosions and anything with bosomy beauties. As Dr. Watson never said, "no shit, Sherlock". It's not like there's some great puzzle about why that is so.

And that's the point, actually--that there are problems with entertainment (not just comics, and not just this example) that was/is produced by white men for white men as if no one else and certainly not women mattered, but also a concomitant lack of self-awareness and criticism of these problems.

In this instance, though, the fact that the author himself came to regret his work, specifically those aspects that others too have criticised as the worst, should give any fan pause before jumping on the anti-feminist bandwagon.

Mind you, Moore's work in general is not in any way "feminist". On the contrary, it's been widely criticised as misogynistic and problematic. If he is having qualms about sexualised violence in something he put his name to, it's certainly not because of an excess of sensitivity or care about women's issues (or if it is, that's a very late development).

None of this negates his talent, his stature in the field or the popularity of his work or the worth of his opinions on other issues.

It has received some critique, but jumping down someone's throat for even suggesting that it be given the fine treatment seems a bit much.

Well, the "jumping" is in the eye of the beholder. I don't care who orders a fine edition of what, but I do feel free to comment when some suggestions are equally freely--and publicly--made. Let me also note that it's easier to remain unmoved when we don't feel personally threatened by certain things. But some of us ARE daily threatened by the attitudes exemplified in The Killing Joke--and particularly its reception. We don't all enjoy the luxury of having thick white male skin, iow.

These are not trivial matters. Maybe they never were, but they decidedly are not trivial today, when a certain type of "disaffected" white male individual is organising on the internet and some--increasingly many--are committing massacres. (I read this morning the US military has issued a warning on the basis of received intelligence about a plan to execute a Joker-like massacre.)

Are "the comics to blame"? Of course not. Comics, like everything else, reflect our own values. But that's why comics, and everything else, should also serve to examine those values.

>158 LolaWalser: I think that's an unfairly harsh treatment of the comic book movie genre as a whole when the most popular comic book movies as of late have been the Marvel Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy movies (well regarded and aimed mostly for families), Black Panther and Wonder Woman that came out a few years ago. The tone and content of Joker is an exception to the recent norm.

Edit: not to mention the one of the most current popular comic book characters is literally a female Joker

>159 davelin:

I think that's an unfairly harsh treatment of the comic book movie genre as a whole when the most popular comic book movies as of late have been the Marvel Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy movies (well regarded and aimed mostly for families), Black Panther and Wonder Woman that came out a few years ago.

Hmm, I don't think I said anything about the movies as such--although, as it happens, it's true enough I don't particularly value them (if anything, I find their comics superior). I realise this puts me in a minority vis-à-vis fans but I can live with that if others will let me live with that... :) Anyway, in order not to enlarge this digression beyond all reason, suffice it to say that for those who wish to know more, there are plenty of interesting, well-founded criticisms of the "comic book movie" in general as well as of particular cases, from Batman to 300, The Watchmen, Wonder Woman etc.

not to mention the one of the most current popular comic book characters is literally a female Joker

Yeah, but that's not the Joker living in public consciousness, is it, not the Joker Nicholson, Heath Ledger and now Joaquin Phoenix are portraying, not the icon, the, in the minds of the fans, in any way the "real" character. I have an early gender-flipped Joker comic from the 1990s, and many other examples of similar "alternative" retellings regarding other superheroes, and I have yet to meet a
regular person who knows of them, let alone pictures the superhero in their guise.

It's also entirely uncertain what gender-flipping here does for the character. Female villains are not seen in the same way as male villains. The double standard that forgives men a variety of faults and misdeeds because they are men, while punishing women most strictly for those same things, extends there too. So while we're forced to accept the sob story of a loveless youth as sufficient reason and justification for Joker's insane violence (which, at least in the comics, is also very much accompanied with a definite misogynistic edge--something that became glaring when they saddled him with a "girlfriend"), it's difficult to see how that same sob story would be accepted in the case of a female Joker. Women simply are not given the same leeway as men to be pictured as abhorrent, monstrous and yet worthy, perversely, of admiration. Because there's no doubt that characters as vile as the Joker and the entire gallery of Moore's male characters, are admired and embraced as avatars by swathes of (mostly) white men.

>158 LolaWalser: Are "the comics to blame"? Of course not. Comics, like everything else, reflect our own values. But that's why comics, and everything else, should also serve to examine those values.

You are obviously free to pick and shape what values reflect on you, but I don't see the point of refining or defining what values must be perceived by others. I have no doubt that a zealous mind is capable of finding something to abhor in pretty much anything.

>156 LolaWalser:

...I fail to see what a Folio treatment does for comics that a sturdy trade hardcover would fail to do, but that's a subjective take.

Precisely, "subjective." But, again, my point referred to the recognition by a top-rate publisher that comics are worthwhile matter. I would add, however, that there's more than sturdiness in the publishing of a work. On everything else you mention on gender, I don't differ very much from the points you raise.

I read The Killing Joke a while back and I’ve never remembered it being misogynistic. This thread prompted me to get it off my shelf to see if I’d forgotten something.

*SPOILERS*

I can only assume the guilty part is the scene where the Joker shoots Barbara Gordon, strips her naked and takes photos of her. Now this is a clearly a hideous event for a female character, but that it does not automatically follow that it is mysogynistic, and in my view it is not.

The scene serves a plot purpose (to terrorise Jim Gordon and send him over the edge), and is presented in a way so as to leave no doubt how the reader should feel about it. The whole point is to show what a psychopath the Joker is. Also the reader sees very little of the nudity, while still seeing enough to be disgusted.

Contrast this with later scenes where Jim Gordon is literally dragged around the fair ground stark naked while on a leash. This covers more panels than the Barbara scene.

Now I appreciate this content is not for everyone, but I reject the notion it’s misogynistic. I’m remain open to arguments to the contrary, however.

Incidentally, DC kept this story as cannon, and Barbara Gordon became a long standing character supporting Batman with her tech ‘superpowers, while being disabled.

When DC reset this continuity and turned her back into able bodied Batgirl, there was outcry in some quarters that they were removing one of the few prominent disabled characters in superhero comics.

This shows, in my view, that there will always be an element of the population who take at offence and any kind of art.

>161 bacchus.:

but I don't see the point of refining or defining what values must be perceived by others.

Neither do I, which is why I'm insisting on criticism vs. fanboy adulation and, as I wrote, "examining those values" all the time.

I have no doubt that a zealous mind is capable of finding something to abhor in pretty much anything.

Could be true; after all, the monstrous is human. But for my part, I'm more concerned with closed minds blind to the ways they condone and propagate every manner of prejudice, discrimination and injustice.

>162 drasvola:

Yes, I agree, Folio's Marvel edition is a welcome recognition of the medium's respectability. Not that I imagine there were many doubts left by now!

>163 Uppernorwood:

Now that you've re-read the comic, you ought to read up on the criticism it drew over the last 30 years. The discussion isn't about whether it's misogynistic, but the whys and wherefores of the misogyny (and that is no big mystery either).

I won't be discussing it here further. There's a boatload of material freely available. Some relatively fresh mentions in the wake of the recent animated movie:

The complicated, controversial history of ‘Batman: The Killing Joke’ (Los Angeles Times)

“The Killing Joke” was published at a time when the idea of the “realistic” superhero was on the rise as the comics industry struggled to reach new readers — “DC Comics aren’t just for kids!” exclaimed one cover tagline of the period — and it’s a book that readily embraces that concept by turning the Joker into a more sadistic, crueler character than he had ever been before.

This came to a head in a scene where the Joker confronts Commissioner Gordon’s daughter, Barbara — who, although it’s not mentioned in the book itself, is secretly the superhero Batgirl — and shoots her in the gut, shattering her spine. As he then bends down to unbutton her blouse, he tells her, “I’ll take some snapshots to remind him of you.” In a later scene, the reader sees that he’s carried through on his threat: the backdrop of one scene is a number of photographs of a naked Barbara, writhing in pain.

At time of publication, the scene was, if not embraced, then at least accepted as a signifier of the Joker’s evil. Before too long, however, the response had become one of concern over the treatment given to one of DC’s most high-profile female heroes, left crippled and sexually abused to provide emotional pain for the story’s male protagonists.

The implicit misogyny in DC’s treatment of Batgirl was underscored by Moore himself, whose relationship with the publisher had soured in the years since publication. In a 2006 interview with Wizard magazine, he recalled that “I asked DC if they had any problem with me crippling Barbara Gordon — who was Batgirl at the time — and if I remember, I spoke to Len Wein, who was our editor on the project. … {He} said, ‘Yeah, OK, cripple the bitch.’”

{{NOTE: Len Wein's not at all "implicit" misogyny. Is anyone surprised that the men engaged in this industry are also casually misogynistic?}}

Batman: The Killing Joke and why you can't just 'update' sexist source material (The Guardian)

Batman: The Killing Joke Predicted the Bleak State of Superheroes (The Atlantic)

And so on to infinity...

The Ballad of Halo Jones

>163 Uppernorwood: Welcome to the world of victimism and identity politics. Just remember that when in doubt, you're always wrong a priori, being a White Male Swine. So better shut up, bend over, and submit to the Morality Police. They know better.

Trallala .. bom .. Trallala .. bom .. bombom .. squish .. shakabomdidom .. Bosh!

Oh, sorry, wrong thread. I was just practising my new set of drums ..

`Now, where did i put that violin .. hmm ..`

>166 elladan0891:

That's beyond feeble.

>168 LolaWalser:
Sorry- taken to DM

ducks

>170 LolaWalser: I should have made that a PM. Sorry about that. PM sent.

chickens

I'm not the kind of guy who said I told you so.

Perennial weeds.

>173 LesMiserables:

Coming from you, every insult is a compliment.

The complex broadsheet brochure for Marvel has now been photographed in sections and posted on the FSD wiki here.

I’m on the fence with this. I collected comics until I was about 13 and it was a great stage if my life. Since then I’ve dipped on occasion and the nostalgia of this volume calls to me.

Anybody have any reviews of the edition?

>176 Priyesh2022: I enjoy these volumes. The production is up to Folio's usual standards. The contents are as if you had somehow managed to put together a collection of vintage Golden Age comics, with the yellowing of the original comic paper with age faithfully presented. The Marvel Omnibuses clean up the presentation - the comics look more like they would have when new. The Marvel volumes are sturdy and well put together, but lack the bells and whistles of the Folio. The facsimile issue included with the Folio is fun to flip through, but it doesn't feel much like a comic. They've gotten better with the more recent volumes (still sturdy facsimiles but feel more like comics).

If you want to experience the classic stories, the Marvel Omnibuses are probably a better choice due to the clearer presentation of the art. If you want to feel like you've built a collection of some classic Golden Age issues, Folio is your choice. I think both approaches are valid and I have both. (BTW there is some overlap in coverage between the Folio and Marvel volumes, but the content does not directly line up.)

>177 Chemren: Many thanks for the comprehensive response. I do have some Daredevil Omnibuses which are great value for money, in my view. I've also recently picked up Absolute Dark Knight Returns recently.

I'm intrigued by the facsimile proposition put forward by Folio and have just ordered a copy. Which will probably end up in in my to be read shelf!

It's the dichotomy of life. I had all the time to read when I was a teenager but no money to buy books/comics.

Now I have the money but no time to read the volumes I buy!

>178 Priyesh2022: Please let us know what you think after you have received it.

>179 Chemren: received and am pleased enough to have gone and ordered the Bronze Age volume and the new Hulk edition.

It is a remarkable amount of money but in my view it’s worth it for its archival quality and much depends on your motivation for buying. My library is quickly looking like a reading diary of my life. And comic collecting and was an amazing and innocent hobby at a much more simpler time of my life. It’s a pleasure to have these folio editions represent that part of my life.

I look forward to opening up these volumes and stepping back in time by 35-40 years, even if it is just for a moment or two. And that’s their primary value to me. Secondary value is the art and history they present.

I hope to find something similar for DC at some stage and any recommendations wouod be welcome.

>180 Priyesh2022: I don't know of a DC equivalent to these Folio Marvel Volumes. The DC Golden Age Archive Omnibuses tend to be character related. They track the characters appearances chronologically through the various comic books that they appeared in. The art is cleanly presented rather like the Marvel Golden Age Omnibuses. I have to warn you, from personal experience, if you head down the path of purchasing these it can be rather addictive.

Another rabbit hole, which I don't at all regret going down, is the Library of American Comics. Like you with comic books, I gained an appreciation for comic strips early, reading the daily comics in the newspaper and then hunting out collected versions of older strips from the local library. Little Orphan Annie, Buck Rogers, Dick Tracy - I just devoured those volumes back in the 1970s. Finding quality reprints of old comic strips has been an obsession of mine over the decades since with little bursts of activity from various publishers flaring up and then dying down again. The last 15 years have been a great time for this, with the Library of American Comics leading the way. Fantagraphics, Dark Horse, and especially Sunday Press have also published some wonderful volumes. The two Sunday Press Little Nemo collections are a marvel to behold. The rate of publication has died down during the pandemic, so maybe we are nearing the end of this particular burst of comic strip reprint activity.

Many of the Library's earlier volumes are out of print now and are quite pricey to track down in the secondary market. But if you want to dip your toes in the water, they are embarking on a new project under a new publishing house (they've shifted from IDW to Clover Press) - Terry and the Pirates: The Master Collection. This will eventually run to 12 volumes (plus a 13th of ephemera for subscribers). The first volume is going to come out in a few weeks and they will follow at the rate of three per year. You'll be able to buy them from the usual suspects one at a time or you can subscribe at a discount directly from the publisher. They already have enough subscribers to guarantee that they will reach the end (always a risk on these type of ventures). If I read you right from your previous couple of posts, I believe you won't regret taking this voyage.