Goth music-post 1970s

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Goth music-post 1970s

1benbrainard8
maig 9, 2020, 11:26am

Dear all---Lola has graciously offered to let me put out a new topic of discussion, and I hope to do it justice. I, like many readers have listened to various rock/pop music groups that supposedly fit into the "Goth" music genre.

I'm a bit of a later starter, as many of the group that are lumped into the early years of Goth, and we're talking rock/pop music, Classical is another thread. Below are items I'd just posted in another thread. Topic I wanted to explore are my favorite Goth groups, albums, and even particular songs. Later, I'd like to open the floor, even to have people contribute their lists (e.g. top Goth albums you must have). And spirited discussion is welcome. I graciously open the floor below with my first thread on this topic:

Goth music. I'd probably start with a few keys songs, from particular albums. Later, when you find them actually read the lyrics. Tell me if I'm close, on mark, or way, way off. I'm open!

Bauhaus--though many people say "Bela Lugosi's Dead" is the obvious choice, I fervently disagree. Instead, listen to the songs 1) MASK (from self titled album) 2) SPIRIT (from any of their compilations or live version 3) STIGMATA MARTYR

Siouxsie and the Banshees: 1) SPELLBOUND (from "Juju") 2) LULLABY (from "Tinderbox" 3) 92 DEGREES (from "Tinderbox")

The Cure--- 1) ONE HUNDRED YEARS, A STRANGE DAY, and A SHORT TERM EFFECT, all from the "Pornography" album/CD; 2) LAMENT, from any of their compilation albums 3) TWILIGHT GARDEN (it might sound little Romantic, but I find it to be very sad, too, and melancholic 4) many of the songs from their albums "Faith" and "Seventeen Seconds", but look for DROWNING MAN on "Faith" album/CD

The Sisters of Mercy , the entire "Floodland" album, but definitely song COLOURS, FLOOD I, FLOOD II, and DRIVEN LIKE THE SNOW; many people also say the must haves are also MARIAN and ALICE (first independent EP)

Joy Division/New Order---entire album "CLOSER" from Joy Division but with a nod to song called THE ETERNAL;
Many people might not think of New Order as Goth, but listen to the album, "MOVEMENT", and especially the songs THE HIM & TRUTH; this is one of the most melancholic albums and if you cannot hear Bernard Sumner channeling Ian Curtis...

Hmm....these should definitely get you started. I've got a lot, lot, lots more. But let's start here, ok? With all of these song, I would definitely read the lyrics, and listen to the songs on headphones.

Tell me what you think----agree? disagree? No comments, which is fine, too, as we're all friends here.

It would enlighten me if any of you have what you'd call essential Goth groups---again, in rock/pop genres. And if you've particular albums, songs, videos, I'd really like to see those too.

So let's get rolling!

2LolaWalser
maig 9, 2020, 11:54am

>1 benbrainard8:

This is a public group where anyone can make threads and post and you absolutely don't need anyone's permission to do so, certainly not mine. :)

I think I'd need to learn more about the whole topic of Goth music/subculture before I could comment with some relevance... You seem to have far more definite ideas on this! Vaguely, for now, I'd say that in my mind Siouxsie.. and The Cure map somewhere over or at least close to what I'd call (and possibly somebody did already) Romantic, neo- or Dark, as the mood may strike.

3housefulofpaper
maig 10, 2020, 1:35pm

I have a recording of a 2009 radio documentary about Goth music. I thought maybe a re-listen would help crystallise my thoughts. Didn't work. If anything I'm more confused, especially as it begins audio clips or new interview excerpts with with all the big names denying that they were ever Goths...

There's a lot of archive radio material online but sadly not this, at present, otherwise I'd link to it. There is a webpage with the write-up which I've pasted below:

"In 1979, a dark and moody sound started to emerge from the roots of punk and glam rock. Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Cure and Bauhaus all grabbed their eyeliner pencils, dressed in black and released moody albums.

"Over thirty years on and the word "goth" still fills parents with dread. "Professional ex-goth", Andrew Collins explores the phenomenon. He finds that even the genesis of the term "goth" is disputed - was it Tony Wilson talking about Joy Divison, Siouxsie Sioux on the Joined Hands album, Steve Abbot of UK Decay or perhaps Ian Astbury of The Cult? Wayne Hussey, of The Mission and The Sisters Of Mercy, reckons the original goth was Johnny Cash.

"After its heyday in the 1980s when The Cult could fill the Royal Albert Hall and unkempt teenagers everywhere modelled themselves on The Cure's Robert Smith's trademark look of big hair and smeared lipstick, goth music has retreated into the shadows. Andrew looks at what happened to goth after 1988, when the alternative music scenes of rave and baggy took over.

"Goth has undergone a transformation, from a moody, provincial UK subculture to a transatlantic teen cult that has been blamed for high school shootings and self-harm among troubled US kids. But goth's influence on subsequent genres, including "emo", is clear.

"Now the look and name is associated with a myriad of styles from neo-classical to industrial. So much so that even figureheads like Gary Numan, who has been hailed as the godfather of industrial, can't explain what it is or where it comes from. One thing is certain - it isn't going away.

"First broadcast on Radio 2 in February 2009."

I feel as if, as a teenager in the early 80s I would have "known" what Goth music was, what Goths were, with the certainty of that very tribal time in (UK) youth culture, but a bit more knowledge quickly makes those boundaries much fuzzier - Bauhaus covering Bowie, Mark Bolan, and Eno, and using Dub techniques on "Bela Lugosi's Dead"; electronic music developing separately from guitar-based Punk and Post-Punk, European influences (looking like Kraftwerk or "Low" era Bowie as well as sounding like them; the nascent New Romantic movement (there's a section in the documentary where they talk about Goths as a provincial version of the New Romantics in the capital, and then - to blur those boundaries - do Visage's "Fade to Grey" or Bowie's "Ashes to Ashes" have a Goth feel to them, or just a more general 1981 vibe?)

Thoughts on "Mask":

I do know this song. I have the same "best of" compilation as Lola but in limited edition vinyl (when I say limited edition, mine is number 24,644!). We also had somebody's copy of Mask (the album) in our school sixth-form common room, but I don't remember it on the turntable very much.I haven't listened to it for a while.

I watched the video on YouTube - I'll say something about that in a moment - and I read the comments that agree with you that this is pretty much the quintessential Goth track, or at least the most Bauhaus that Bauhaus ever were. It feels - occult, ceremonial, even without the visuals. In not musically skilled enough to unpick and analyse what creates the effect apart from, of course the sound of the guitars and the incantatory vocals.

Looking at the lyrics there is nothing overtly "Gothic" - of course the imagery of castles and supernatural terrors had been claimed by heavy rock 10-15 years previously and Goth Rock/Goth Music went in other directions (plus, the name was imposed or applied to what was probably always a disparate group of creators, at first). These lyrics feel gnomic, personal, describing an internal state of mind or state of being. They could, I feel, be set to an entirely different type of music - folky or confessional singer-songwriter, for example.

The video - I would have sworn I'd never seen it before but I did used to have a VHS of Bauhaus videos. I assume the reason I don't still own it is because it stopped playing, which was a feature of those (expensive!) 50-odd minute video collections. So I have seen it, but not for 20 years or more. This again struck me as showing Goth drawing inspiration from older artistic sources. The comments talk about German Expressionism (and I can see it, also I guess that is what the name "Bauhaus" is gesturing at rather than clean-lined modern furniture design!) but surely, filtered through the Underground cinema scene? I've only seen clips of Kenneth Anger's films but the imagery seems to be echoed here (I am, though, aware that the technical limitations of using little better than home movie technology may have imposed something of that look).

4LolaWalser
Editat: maig 10, 2020, 2:23pm

>3 housefulofpaper:

the original goth was Johnny Cash.

How interesting.

I can actually see this in regard to some of the "hell's fire" songs of his last period, those "American Recordings" (I think I have all of them...)

I have the same "best of" compilation as Lola but in limited edition vinyl

As ever! :)

Most contact I ever had with Goths was when I lived in New Orleans. Well, there was also that friend at the uni, but I was too square for her.

I'm thinking a lot of metal would be natural fare for a Goth.

5benbrainard8
Editat: maig 10, 2020, 4:31pm

Yes, Johnny Cash, let's call him a sub-Goth genre. Note his incredible cover of the Nine Inch Nails song, 'Hurt':

https://youtu.be/8AHCfZTRGiI

Compare to this incredible live version of the same song, Nine Inch Nails, (NIN) "Hurt" (originally from the NIN "Downward Spiral" album)

https://youtu.be/dhh21crSohs

For me, there are many cross-overs from Industrial (dance and hard) that easily be given Goth attributes, I've put a few below

"(Every Day Is) Halloween" a song by American band Ministry, both written and produced by Al Jourgensen. Originally released by Wax Trax! Records in 1984 ;

Also listen to Ministry's song, 'Dream song' from their 1988 album, "The Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste"

https://youtu.be/MZDGpH5zzsY

And there are some bands that simply defy categorization. I've listed a few people that I've always had trouble with, but do like them and that often people consider to be Goth, even if only for particular albums.

Clan of Xymox, later called Xymox: their album called "MEDUSA" (1986); some times this group falls in sub-genre Darkwave;

Gene Loves Jezebel, their first two or three albums are often called a cross between glam rock, Goth, and pop: Their 1st album "Promise" (1983) & 2nd album, "Immigrant" (1985), some people argue their album "Discover" (1986) should be called "Goth", but I find that to be a bit of a stretch personally.

Other, and very honorably mentioned groups/albums/EPs:

DANSE SOCIETY, THERE IS NO SHAME IN DEATH EP , (PAX RECORDS 12″, 1981)

UK DECAY, RISING FROM THE DREAD EP, (CORPUS CHRISTI 12″, 1982)

SISTERS OF MERCY, ‘ALICE’, (MERCIFUL RELEASE 7″, 1982)

XMAL DEUTSCHLAND, ‘INCUBUS SUCCUBUS’, (ZICKZACK 12″, 1982)

VARIOUS ARTISTS, YOUNG LIMBS AND NUMB HYMNS, (LONDON RECORDS LP, 1983)

KILLING JOKE, REVELATIONS, (POLYDOR LP, 1982)

VIRGIN PRUNES, PAGAN LOVESONG, (ROUGH TRADE 7″, 1982

SEX GANG CHILDREN, ‘MAURITIA MAYER’, (CLAY RECORDS 7″, 1983)

RUDIMENTARY PENI, DEATH CHURCH, (CORPUS CHRISTI LP, 1983)

DALI’S CAR, THE WAKING HOUR, (PARADOX RECORDS LP, 1984)

CHRISTIAN DEATH, CATASTROPHE BALLET, (L’INVITATION AU SUICIDE LP, 1984)

PLAY DEAD, FROM THE PROMISED LAND, (CLAY RECORDS LP, 1984)

CINDYTALK, CAMOUFLAGE HEART, (MIDNIGHT MUSIC LP, 1984)

AND ALSO THE TREES, VIRUS MEADOW, (CLAY RECORDS, 1986)

DEAD CAN DANCE, WITHIN THE REALM OF A DYING SUN, (4AD, 1987)

6benbrainard8
maig 10, 2020, 3:54pm

As to the Bauhaus song, 'MASK' , though it's one of my favourite Bauhaus songs, many people would argue there are other Bauhaus tracks that would have to be included in any Goth music list. I'll put the song below and the corresponding album,

"Dark Entries" , Album: 1979-1983 (Year of release 1986)

"Spirit" is the seventh single released by British gothic rock band Bauhaus. It was released in 7" format on the Beggars Banquet label as a regular release with the band's distinctive logo on both sides (front black on white, back white on black)

"Stigmata Martyr", In the Flat Field (1980)

"Bela Lugosi's Dead" is a song by the English post-punk band Bauhaus. The song was the band's first single, released on 6 August 1979 by record label Small Wonder. It is often considered the first gothic rock record.

As Lola mentioned the song, "Mask" has golem references. And if my eyes are not deceiving me, it appears to have been filmed in what looks like a crematorium.

I've particularly enjoyed how Bauhaus, and even their iterations---Love and Rockets, Peter Murphy as solo artist, Dali's car, Tones on Tales--- have always written beautiful & relatively complex music. They've not shirked their "Goth godfathers" label but at same time manage to keep a grin in cheek nuance about being labeled. Perhaps they realize that the fans themselves can become over-obsessed with labeling. Everyone likes a categorization, perhaps it makes it easier for the fan to track who is who, and to assist in description(s). I take their tongue- and grin- in cheek appropriately, since even I know the song, "Spirit" ends with the lovely incantation:

"We love our audience"
"We love our audience'

(REPEATs!)

8benbrainard8
maig 10, 2020, 4:09pm

And if anyone can explain the end of that video of live performance by Bauhaus of "Spirit", I'm all ears. There are other videos of same song, some which are of much higher quality. But I found that video to be interesting----

9benbrainard8
maig 10, 2020, 4:18pm

I enjoyed what a online reviewer to the Bauhaus song "She's in Parties" wrote about the ever-ending argument (see below!):

Industrial isn't goth, goth and industrial just tend to merge from time to time. Industrial Music is closely associated with the goth scene - many events are billed as "goth / industrial", Festivals cater for industrial tastes as well as goth; and in some cases goth and industrial music fans may be visually almost indistinguishable from each other. A goth might listen to some industrial music and Industrial fans might listen to some goth music, but whilst the two scenes very closely interlinked, each is definitely a separate subculture in its own right.

10LolaWalser
Editat: maig 10, 2020, 6:20pm

>5 benbrainard8:

Note his incredible cover of the Nine Inch Nails song, 'Hurt':

Exactly, terrific example... "pain...the only thing that's real..."

Regarding the rest, I'm familiar only with Ministry and Dead Can Dance. Interesting how an expansion of the vocabulary, as the addition of "Goth" here, refreshes one's views. I wonder what I was thinking of that particular quality of theirs before.

>9 benbrainard8:

Speaking as someone not consciously a part of any subculture, musical or otherwise, I think that perhaps a lot of our perception depends on the "door" through which we enter a genre, a style etc. For example, you're linking Goth and industrial, whereas I came to industrial via the experimental trends in classical--sound, electronica, noise etc. It's like intersecting corridors with doors opening from various angles onto the same styles.

>8 benbrainard8:

No clue, is that from the same recording? (Can't tell if they are dressed as on the stage.) Unprompted to question it, I'd think the camera just followed them off stage.

11housefulofpaper
maig 10, 2020, 7:09pm

>5 benbrainard8:

I recognise a lot of the band names but not so many of the tracks. I used to buy the New Musical Express in the '80s, I think Melody Maker was more the Goth's music paper of choice.

12housefulofpaper
maig 10, 2020, 7:12pm

>8 benbrainard8:

I can only make a guess - is it from a video of a live show, did the video have a framing narrative of the show being watched on film by 4 Victorian characters (not played by the band, from what I could see - might be wrong. Might be wrong about it all!)

13benbrainard8
Editat: maig 19, 2020, 10:02am

Thank you, this is a remarkable analysis. I think it's accurate to say that many of these music genres do mix together and yet also manage to keep a separateness.

I also view Industrial music, through what I'll call a different lens; I enjoy music like Einstürzende Neubauten. But I doubt if many people would ever categorize them as Goth.

Example, I don't know if you'd consider this song by Einstürzende Neubauten to be Gothic in nature, but I've often thought it has a "Gothic timbre":

https://youtu.be/0U1rdcHhay4

I first heard in a movie soundtrack.

Thank you both for analysis of the end of the "Spirit" video. It's quite a song.

Yes, Dead Can Dance is a group that has some definite Gothic elements. I find their music also to be, what'd I'd call, organic. Tell me if this song, "Rakim", sounds like you might find it in a medieval castle-setting:

https://youtu.be/-qHiaoz9su0

I'd only found Dead Can Dance recently, within the last 3-4 years, so I'd quite a bit of catching up to do!

Ministry went from an Industrial group, to being more Metal. It's always interesting to see which directions groups will go....whether or not we might see it as going backwards, well perhaps that's according to our own personal taste, isn't it?

14WeeTurtle
maig 19, 2020, 8:33am

This is way beyond my ability to focus and follow at the moment. I'm one who has never really understood music genres and such, especially when it comes to subgenres of rock and metal.

A couple bands I did listen two that were presented to me as "goth" are "H.I.M." and "Nightwish." Nightwish also gets sold as opera or symphonic metal, maybe power in there as well because of the fantasy lyrics here and there. It's been some time since I've listened to either band to recall specific songs (or albums in the case of HIM. I had a lot more of their stuff than Nightwish.) Topics both bands cover are things like angels, loss, death dead or lost love etc. in the case of HIM and supernatural or mysterious things in the of Nightwish (going by the one album I had). Coincidentally, both groups are Finnish.

I happened upon a "top 25 gothic influencers" or such list. Not sure if I spotted Johnny Cash on it, but I do remember seeing Cabaret's Emcee. That surprised me a but but I think this article was focused largely on the style aesthetic and he was picked out for his pale faced make-up look.

I just googled "gothic bands" and of the list that came up, I know very few save for who I just mentioned, Evanescence, Nine Inch Nails, and Depeche Mode. I've heard of Lacuna Coil and the Swans through a friend.

I think I might tentatively add to the list, also from a friend, "Cradle of Filth." The singer certainly has the black and make-up aesthetic, but some of the songs are very literary, and in fact they have one called "Byronic Man" that is fairly clever with it's lyrics: "They call me bad, mad Caliban with manners, dangerous to know." Many of the words are vulgar or crude in a lot of his stuff but past that it's quite interesting. On the album "Godspeed on the Devil's Thunder" deals with the life of Gilles de Rais. (Fun fact! -if you're a horror buff- The narrator in "Death of Love" and other songs is Doug Bradley. ;).)

15housefulofpaper
maig 19, 2020, 8:00pm

My understanding of what is and isn't Goth, so far as it goes and as far as any hard-and-fast classification is possible, stops around 1987. Even back then, it wasn't a deep knowledge. So this is going to be a voyage of discovery for me as much as for the rest of us.

I listened to Floodland by The Sisters of Mercy (going riiiight back to Ben's list in >1 benbrainard8:). Have you seen or got roped into the "choose 10 LPs that greatly influenced your taste in music"? A friend chose this one, so I had 2 reasons to go and investigate this next.

I did in fact know some of the tracks already from airplay in the '80s, and the memory was jogged by more recent plays on satellite/cable TV.

Musically it sounded very commercial, compared to the benchmark for the Goth sound in my head (Bauhaus/Souixsie around 1982/83). The gated drum sound is very Phil Collins ("In the Air Tonight" was 1981, I don't think Sisters of Mercy pioneered that particular sound). There's a saxophone, or more likely a synthesised saxophone sound, on one track. That's not Goth to these ears!

And it's catchy, where a lot of Goth Music - a lot of '80's Indie in fact - wears its Post Punk credentials on its sleeve with a very abrasive sound. I'm sure that at the time, when I heard the singles from the album, saw the videos, I had the sense that something extreme was swinging back around to the mainstream.

Rock and pop was "doing" politics in the mid-late '80s. Band Aid and Live Aid, of course, but also Indie bands and survivors of Punk - U2, Billy Bragg, Elvis Costello, The The (Matt Johnson). In that context the lyrics or subject matter don't strike me as being apart from the mainstream, or perhaps from the alternative mainstream (if you can claim such a thing exists!).

As I said before, it's difficult to pinpoint or pin down Goth lyrics, as Gothic imagery was claimed for heavy rock by Black Sabbath et al a good 10 year earlier, Punk and Post Punk and Industrial "did" alienation and angst, anything going fey or fantastical risked harking back to Prog Rock or Folk...

16housefulofpaper
maig 19, 2020, 8:34pm

The first line of "Bela Lugosi's Dead" is "white on white translucent black capes".

Found out today that "White on white" is the title of an etude for solo piano composed by György Ligeti. Ligeti was born in Transylvania...

17benbrainard8
Editat: maig 20, 2020, 12:28pm

Hello All!

I've got more to add later after I listen to more of "H.I.M." and "Nightwish." I've just added them to my Spotify account and was going to listen to them over the next couple of days or so, so that I've got at least something on-topic to say. I did notice that one of my Goth compilation CDs, has "Wings of a Butterfly" by H.I.M/HIM;

Heh, types of Goth---subgenres of Goth?

Emo---Emo is a rock music genre characterized by an emphasis on emotional expression, sometimes through confessional lyrics. It emerged as a style of post-hardcore from the mid-1980s hardcore punk movement in Washington, D.C., where it was known as emotional hardcore or emo-core and pioneered by bands such as Rites of Spring and Embrace

Gothic music, eh, could have anyone or no one, sort of an open definition, tell me if you think of something/someone or any specific bands---seems like an all encompassing term

Swampie-- Originating in Australia, and largely contained there, "Swampies" were/are a "proto-Goth" subculture. According to natives of Oz, Swampies are either a) an early form of the Gothic subculture in Australia prior to the import of Goth from the UK, b) a distinct subculture that originated alongside Goth, or c) a term used by a very small minority of Sydney, NSW, goths to identify others as "baby bats" or "poseurs". Swampies are described in a handful of alt.gothic archives from the mid-1990s

Industrial--Ministry, KMFDM, Nitzer Ebb, Front Line Assembly, Front 242, etc; much of it nicely bookends with popular electronic bands (Depeche Mode anyone?)

Metal/hard dance/Extreme Metal--- looking at you, Skinny Puppy fans! (?) "Cradle of Filth.", etc (?) Help me on this one please, Wee Turtle....unfamiliar territory!

Darkwave--- e.g. Clan of Xymox, Xymox, etc. Dark wave or darkwave is a music genre that emerged from the new wave and post-punk movement of the late 1970s. Dark wave compositions are largely based on minor key tonality and introspective lyrics, and have been perceived as being dark, romantic, and bleak, with an undertone of sorrow. Common features include the use of chordophones such as electric and acoustic guitar, violin, and piano, as well as electronic instruments such as synthesizer, sampler, and drum machine. The genre embraces a range of styles including cold wave, ethereal wave, gothic rock, neoclassical dark wave, and neofolk

Gothic Rock, for me, this includes what I call pre-, Punk, and post-Punk, talking Joy Division, even the Clash, Black Flag, the Damned, etc.

Early Gothic music ; Joy Division/New Order, Bauhaus, The Cure, Siouxsie & the Banshees, many others....can we add bands like Nina Hagen? Does electronica run into this group ?

Deathrock-- Death rock is a rock music sub-genre incorporating horror elements and gothic theatrics. It emerged from punk rock on the West Coast of the United States in the early 1980s and overlaps with the gothic rock and horror punk genres. Notable death rock acts include Christian Death, Kommunity FK, 45 Grave, TSOL, Zombina And The Skeletones, and Super Heroines.

Un-defined---e.g. Johnny Cash, Dead Can Dance, the Cranes, My Bloody Valentine, The Cult, The Church, Echo and the Bunnymen, Lush, Curve, The Birthday Massacre, etc. etc.---others that might not fit into tidy "Gothic" genres or sub-genres for that matter, which is perfectly fine, isn't it?

Thank you both, now I've got more to listen to over the week and weekend!

18benbrainard8
Editat: maig 20, 2020, 12:10am

Oh, and there is probably a very large international element I'd like to add to this, if i were ever brave or knowledgeable enough.

No I cannot tell you if Luna Sea guitar axe-man, Sugizo, is Goth, even though I swear that his album "Replicant Prayer" sure has some Gothic elements in it. This might be a completely different thread, international Goth...

Open to any suggestions.

19WeeTurtle
maig 20, 2020, 7:24am

>17 benbrainard8: Can't help you too much, benb, that's my friend's territory, though Cradle of Filth is usually tagged as extreme, though the lead singer says "heavy metal," and goth is in the other tags. Dani Filth sings with a lot of growling and high screeching and not a lot in between. It's not usually stuff I like, but "Death of Love" at least did grow on me. Some his stuff gets a little uncomfortable for my part. Filth (yes, that's his name) is usually covered in black leather, metal, and spikes, with a white face. Google "Dani Filth's Wardrobe" in the image search and you immediately get the idea.

As an experiment, I looked up his other favourite bands and My Dying Bride came up as a pioneer of Doom/Death metal and an early gothic metal influence. (According to 'Encyclopedia Metallum," alongside Anathema and Paradise Lost, whom I know my friend has mentioned as well.

KMFDM? Really? Industrial I would agree with given the only their song of theirs I remember hearing, and it's the one that fronted a whole pile of VHS anime back in the day when my sister sister and I were all over it because it was super rare and cool. Can't recall the title and music sharing on the internet wasn't yet elaborate enough to dig up songs easily.

And because I love to plug this song whenever I can, "Paleblood Moon" by Miracle of Sound, listed as symphonic/orchestral rock but pretty dark gothic since it's based off of Bloodborne. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eSrmSsz7mQ

Oh, here's a thing i just found. Cradle of Filth and Ville Valo (H.I.M.) sang Byronic Man together. Valo fills in mostly very deep parts but also the lines "Patron saint of heartache" which is pretty much H.I.M. in a nutshell. Very fitting. Lots of vampires in the video, but that makes sense. It's Lord Byron.

20LolaWalser
Editat: maig 20, 2020, 1:13pm

>14 WeeTurtle:

"H.I.M." and "Nightwish."

I'm intrigued by these too, thanks.

>17 benbrainard8:

I'll take your "undefined" category for a plug of one of my fave cabaret/grotesque theatre acts, The Tiger Lillies. While I don't have the audacity to sort them with any of the above based on musical style and modality (violins, accordion, theremin...!), textually they are squarely in the land of Goth/ic expression--all the time. Albums like From Brothel to the Cemetery, Death and the Bible, The Gorey End, Shockheaded Peter (the latter two were also staged as shows), Devil's Fairground etc. teem with (to quote a character from Spaced) Anger, Pain, Fear, Aggression.

The Tiger Lillies - Incontinent

21benbrainard8
maig 20, 2020, 9:49pm

I've just listened to about an hour of H.I.M., and liked it. Esp. their cover the Chris Isaak song Wicked Game, and their cover of the Blue Öyster Cult song, (Don't Fear) The Reaper. The latter song esp. sounds great with female singer...wow. And it lingers versus the much too short Blue Öyster Cult, (Don't Fear) The Reaper, which I end up listening to two-three times just to enjoy it (yes, it's that cool!).

Yeah, maybe calling KMFDM industrial is a stretch. I've got 10-12 of their albums. And funny thing is when you look them up on Google here in the US, it says:

"KMFDM (originally Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid, loosely translated by the band as "no pity for the majority") is a German industrial band from Hamburg led by multi-instrumentalist Sascha Konietzko, who founded the group in 1984 as a performance art project."

But they certainly are not Einstürzende Neubauten----see my post above, with attached video--- https://www.librarything.com/topic/320063#7157470

Well, I'll keep listening to "H.I.M.", and then "Nightwish". I'm listening to them to and fro, on my drive to work. Then I'll listen to other band(s) that you and Lola are mentioning, Cradle of Filth and The Tiger Lillies - Incontinent.

Then---Cradle of Filth and Ville Valo (H.I.M.), Byronic Man, and "Paleblood Moon" by Miracle of Sound, too boot. Glad have a three-day weekend coming up!

Don't worry, if my tender ears freak out at Cradle of Filth content...well, that happens and is part of the deal of listening to music you've never ever heard. That's how I felt about a lot of American Rap music when I first heard it. Maybe I disliked the lyrics (misogynistic and stupid, some of it!), but still gave them a listen. I'm open to trying anything at least once.

Otherwise, how do we find those hidden treasures?

22benbrainard8
maig 20, 2020, 9:55pm

Don't hit me hard, Lola, but just watched part of the The Tiger Lillies - Incontinent video, and doesn't the voice remind you just a wee bit of Tiny Tim?

https://youtu.be/cfoHF68guh4

Well, it just sort of sounded, well...

23benbrainard8
Editat: maig 20, 2020, 10:11pm

And for everyone to enjoy:

Chris Isaak, incredible MTV unplugged version of Wicked Game-- a longer version of this song, which is featured in the 1990 David Lynch film "Wild at Heart".

https://youtu.be/yCfkqQ5O9mc

H.I.M. cover of Wicked Game: (note one the album versions of the H.I.M. cover, has a female singer and goes on longer than this video version)

https://youtu.be/pBW--bgyezg

I'm very impressed with both versions of this song.

Be safe, be healthy

24WeeTurtle
Editat: maig 20, 2020, 11:37pm

>21 benbrainard8: I'd put a thumbs up emoji here if I knew how.

H.I.M. pretty much inundated my high school years and early college, especially since my sister was a fan. I have the CDs from Greatest Love Songs vol. 666 to Venus Doom. My favourite album is probably Deep Shadows, Brilliant Highlights but Love Metal is pretty darn close. I'll still listen to any of them though.

I definitely like the cover of "Wicked Game, and I actually heard "Don't Fear the Reaper" by H.I.M. before I knew it was a cover. I have the And Love Said No collection, which includes a cover of Neil Diamond "Solitary Man."

"Funeral of Hearts" from Love Metal is probably our most listened to song. "In Joy and Sorrow" is number 2, from Deep Shadows.

I didn't get into Nightwish near as much (possibly due to not having a sibling as into them as well) and only bought the album Once. From what I heard at the time, Oceanborn is their best. I'm not sure who sings on Oceanborn but there is some debate over preferred vocalists. From what I've listened to, my favourite is probably "Ghost Love Score" which is one of those heavy 10 minute metal songs that just keep going. There's a youtube reaction video with hip hop artists listening to it.

This is a live performance. I have no idea what the lyrics are, I just like the music. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYjIlHWBAVo&list=PL9ENCuCLKeMqSmOPAvitGkG936...

EDIT: that link doesn't have flame throwers (at least as far as I made it through). Maybe this one will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODCM26JXOY

Another edit: The second link is definitely Tarja, and the first might be Floor but I'm not sure. Apparently the red dress is a Tarja trademark.

25LolaWalser
maig 21, 2020, 9:54am

>22 benbrainard8:

And what have you got against Tiny Tim? Man was a genius. :)

Martyn Jacques always sings in falsetto (the rest of the band does not). I think it gives the perfect acidic/creepy/ghastly-ghostly vibe to their work.

Didn't realise there was some big controversy about whether or not KMFDM "belong" to industrial or not, but then I can't work up the enthusiasm for Talmudic debates over genre...

26benbrainard8
Editat: maig 21, 2020, 10:24am

I absolutely love Tiny Tim. The voice similarity was awesome (talk about a flashback...). Yes, its interesting and even a little off-setting to my ears.

WeeTurtle, I've been listening to more of H.I.M., and sometimes the vocals remind me a lot of the Seattle "grunge" band Pearl Jam, though for me Pearl Jam is very polished, compared to say, Nirvana.

I listened to Byronic Man, and Paleblood Moon by Miracle of Sound last night. they seem nice. I did watch the Nightwish video last night. I like her dress. But was surprise at how heavily orchestrated the music is. Out of my own curiosity, are they considered "rock/metal" in Europe & Canada? or more of a "pop idol" like band? That's not necessarily a negative moniker in Europe and Asia.

Many of my favorite Japanese bands would sound heavily orchestrated, more like "pop rock" to American ears, but for Japanese are considered to be "rock"---talking about groups like The Yellow Monkey, Luna Sea, X Japan, L'Arc-en-Ciel, Hyde, etc.

Heh, heh. KMFDM will never be found "not guilty" of self-promotion and even some silliness--- if you know the controversy about "Killing ___ Depeche Mode"---you might find them, well, kinda commercial/pop in a manner. And I'd never put them up against, say Ministry, NIN, many other harder industrial bands. I like their songs that are sung in German.

27LolaWalser
maig 21, 2020, 11:15am

>26 benbrainard8:

I have some KMFDM; quite like them. It's not often one gets to hear a female voice with these types of bands.

Please link to some of your Japanese faves, I know next to nothing about that scene.

28housefulofpaper
maig 21, 2020, 6:21pm

I'm still stuck in the 1980s and reacquainting myself with the bands that would be played on late in the evening on Radio One, or would play the "alternative" Friday night at Reading Rock Festival.

I listened to some tracks of a compilation on Apple Music, "goth essentials", some (a lot of) overlap with the list in >5 benbrainard8:. A couple of surprises - "Blood Bitch" by Cocteau Twins, I only knew their - I presume later - much more ethereal stuff. The Cramps - psychobilly, if anything, I would have thought. And "Release the Bats" by The Birthday Party. A notable absence in these lists so far.

29benbrainard8
Editat: maig 21, 2020, 9:13pm

Hello All, and a very nice evening to you.

Here I was yesterday, driving into work and trying to focus on listening to H.I.M. , then thinking to myself, "where the hell do I put Cocteau Twins?"----

The first song that came to my mind was Lorelei from the Treasure album (1984). And another CD that I'd had in early 1990s was The Pink Opaque (1985) which I thought was absolutely brilliant.

Here is video to Lorelei

https://youtu.be/Jc8en0fx0wE

Now from reading those definitions that I'd put above, you'd think perhaps they fit under "Darkwave" Gothic music. But since, like Dead Can Dance, they've got such a long arc, it'd be a lot safer to put them under "Un-defined" category.

Enjoy!

30benbrainard8
Editat: maig 21, 2020, 10:38pm

Housefulofpaper, may we all be stuck in the 1980s-1990s!

When I think about the groups, albums, videos that came out from the 1980s-1990s, wow.

1980s----listening to and buying: New Order, Eurythmics, Tears for Fears, Depeche Mode, the Pixies, Anthrax (heavy/speed metal), Violent Femmes, the B52s, NIN, A Flock of Seagulls, Big Country, Bauhaus, the Cure, Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Psychedelic Furs, REM, U2, The Smiths/Morrissey, The Police, The Clash, Metallica, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Jane's Addiction, Primus, Lush, Radiohead, Ministry, along with the standards that had moved over the 1970s, The Moody Blues, Peter Gabriel, Fleetwood Mac, Pink Floyd, ACDC, Rush, etc., etc.

Then in 1990s, there come a wave of new groups/new types of music: Curve, Oasis (virtual British group wave!), Oakenfold, rap, new types of electronica, the Grunge tide coming from Seattle to which I'd just moved to, in April 1992....

Fairly awesome. And I'm straying far and wide from the "Goth" music path with a lot of these listed bands above, aren't I?

31WeeTurtle
Editat: maig 22, 2020, 1:10am

>26 benbrainard8: Not sure what you mean by "orchestrated" but while Nightwish is considered goth, I think they are mainly covered under "symphonic," and/or "opera" metal. H.I.M. is the only one I've heard labeled directly "goth" in some way.

"Paleblood Moon" and its follow up "A Thousand Eyes" are both based on the Bloodborne video game. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but I think it helps to have that familiarity when listening to the songs.

32benbrainard8
maig 24, 2020, 12:14am

Ah, that makes sense, that Nightwish comes under "symphonic," and/or "opera" metal. I'm probably mixing my terminologies.

I finished listening to the H.I.M. album Deep Shadows and Brilliant Highlights. Spotify appears to have 11 of their entire albums, so I'll take my time and will try to listen to all of them. I like them, they kind of remind me of some other groups, too, like The Cult, little bit of Mission UK. But they've their own thing going.

I don't know Bloodborne game, I've got to admit I'm not much of a gamer (only the occasional game of Titanfall 2). I did fall in love with Minecraft about 8-9 years ago, even have the soundtrack from 2011 version, that must sound silly , having C418. But it's so calm.

Anyway, I'll look-up Bloodborne, the listen to "Paleblood Moon" and its follow up "A Thousand Eyes".

I was reading through some old threads, and you mentioned the movie, The Crow. That movie has a particularly good soundtrack. I love The Cure song, "Burn" which is in that movie. It's a fairly long and interesting song, and has some a sad connotation to me (yes, I found that movie to be really, really sad, esp.).

33benbrainard8
maig 28, 2020, 10:07pm

Putting below some Goth "standard" videos./songs

Band/song/album, and year of release;

The Mission UK/"Wasteland"/album "God's Own Medicine", which came out 1986:

https://youtu.be/2AgqyArv4MY

The Cult/"She Sells Sanctuary"/album titled "Love" released year 1985

https://youtu.be/Vh4voSyJfOo

Echo & The Bunnymen/"The Killing Moon" / from 'Ocean Rain' (1984)

https://youtu.be/LWz0JC7afNQ

New Order/"In A Lonely Place" (12'' Version)/From "Ceremony" (Factory Records, 1981)

https://youtu.be/lxfc_KuaVJA


Siouxsie and the Banshees/"Spellbound"/1981 Polydor Ltd. (UK)

https://youtu.be/TjvvK-Rj0WI

Gene Loves Jezebel/"Cow"/Immigrant, release date 1985, Of interest: "Gene Loves Jezebel are a gothic rock band formed in the early 1980s, now two separate bands of the same name, founded by identical twin brothers, Jay Aston (born John Peter Aston) and Michael Aston"

https://youtu.be/8eUpaHJod9o

Best, good health to you all.

34benbrainard8
Editat: maig 28, 2020, 10:22pm

And a lot of folks don't know that Sisters of Mercy and The Mission (known as The Mission UK in the United States), used to be one band, below is a UK special that explains:

https://youtu.be/fuJawe9JWEY

35WeeTurtle
maig 29, 2020, 2:32am

Oh thanks! Most of the bands I haven't heard of and it's a bit of a shot in the dark to find a good representative song over youtube.

36benbrainard8
maig 29, 2020, 9:44pm

I spent couple of hours listening to various Dark Wave/"Death Rock" songs, on Spotify, and found it interesting. Some did seem very "Gothy" (is that a word?). But others reminded me so much of dance/electronica. But that just goes to show how many interpretations there are out there in world.

And there were also various collections of Goth music on Spotify that had (other), bands & song titles I recognized but had perhaps had mixed up...even with each other. Sigh, a sign of aging?

I enjoyed listening to a lot of groups I'd never heard, and few where I recognized the name of the band but it was first time to listen to them---among those being Christian Death, Inkubus Sukkubus, Fields of the Nephilim. Alien Sex Fiend. London after Midnight, Killing Joke, etc. etc.

It's fun finding new songs, and if I really like a particular one, then it becomes a sort of treasure hunt---hear new song, like new song, look up group and find other albums, so on and so forth!

38housefulofpaper
Editat: juny 4, 2020, 7:11pm

>37 benbrainard8:

There are some very odd (to me) choices in that list. Adam and the Ants, Goth?

I hadn't been aware of the term "Darkwave" and I'm very surprised it dates back to the '80s. I assumed it was a much later coinage being applied retrospectively. I've just read up on Wikipedia.

39benbrainard8
maig 30, 2020, 11:15pm

Yes, I agree. Sometimes I think few listed are a bit of a stretch.

I sometimes myself getting confused by the different terminologies, e.g. Dark wave, Ethereal , Emo, etc. I think often there are quite a few mixtures of genres, so I try not to think, and don't worry too much about any of it. I enjoy finding new types of music!

40WeeTurtle
Editat: maig 31, 2020, 6:39am

>37 benbrainard8: Wow, I'm pretty darn ignorant about goth bands. I know of less than a dozen of the names, and have listened to maybe 3 bands. HIM, NIN (maybe 2 songs), and A Perfect Circle.

Perfect Circle got me a bit. Are they goth? I have Eat the Elephant ("Doomed" is my favourite song, but I Talk Talk stands out as well), and had tickets to Tool's Vancouver concert which was supposed to be today but COVID19 killed that. Not sure if there's a new date yet.

41benbrainard8
maig 31, 2020, 4:10pm

Hello and good morning to everyone, or good evening.

Well, I've always been about a decade or wee bit less late, so don't worry. There is so much music out there. When Bauhaus and Siouxsie & the Banshees had come out with their first albums, I would've been, about age 11-12. I didn't discover Siouxsie until age 16-18, and didn't really get into Bauhaus until my early twenties...

And talk about "late to the game", see short paragraph below-----

Today, I've been learning about the differenced between F.F. Chopin, R. Schumann, Ravel, and C.A. Debussy... only a few pieces of any of them I'd actually recognize if I heard them, and only after someone told me that they were----yes, recognition doesn't necessarily mean cognition, does it?

Hm, er.... I don't know A Perfect Circle, so I'll have to give it a whirl myself to see what I think. I promise to get back in and reply after listening. When I Googled their name it didn't mention them as being Goth. But then again, I sure would never classify Adam Ant as being Goth. Sometimes we've got to question and do a bit of research.

Tool are a great band. That's too bad the concert was nixed because of COVID-19. Sigh, I wonder if concerts will ever be the same now?

42housefulofpaper
maig 31, 2020, 6:37pm

>41 benbrainard8:
I haven't studied musical theory, and I have a fairly bad memory for a tune. I don't think I would be able to tell Chopin from Schumann, or Ravel from Debussy, in a "blind test", unless a very famous piece of music was used.

I pretty much only listened to classical* music in the '90s. i consciously wanted to educate myself in - I suppose the Western Art Music tradition - all the way from Gregorian Chant to what was then the present day. I suppose I did fairly well. Having BBC Radio Three was an invaluable resource, of course.

*not how a musicologist would define it.

43benbrainard8
juny 2, 2020, 10:21am

Hello, I've been listening to A Perfect Circle, using Spotify. Well, I don't know exactly if I'd call them Goth or not.

They remind me a lot of combination of genres/other groups, which is pretty cool. Sometimes, they remind me of Grunge rock bands meet metal bands, a few songs/albums remind me of NIN, and some songs (and this really blows my mind), even remind me of Depeche Mode.

So A Perfect Circle definitely have their own thing going. I think they've gone through some line-up changes & hiatus periods throughout years, which might explain a lot.

Spotify has a group of their songs, from different albums. So far, the four albums from which I've listened to various songs are:

Mer de Noms (2000)
Thirteenth Step (2003)
eMOTIVE (2004)
Eat the Elephant (2018)

Many of the songs from eMOTIVE (2004), e.g. the song "Counting Bodies Like Sheep to the Rhythm of the War Drums", remind me a lot of Nine Inch Nails (NIN). They may have singles which I've missed.

So nothing wrong with labeling them "Goth".....as one of my earlier post mentions, there's quite a bit of cross-over.

44benbrainard8
juny 2, 2020, 10:26am

And now onto a 4 hr. Spotify collection of Cradle of Filth.... will let you know what I think of it on the other end. :)

And will listen to Byronic Man again, too.

45WeeTurtle
Editat: juny 3, 2020, 5:28am

I like select songs from Cradle of Filth, eg. Byronic Man and Death of Love, but I'm also something of a nerd so it amuses me to see how Filth's literary end fits in with his music, and the Doug Bradley cameos. ;). I'm not the biggest fan of growly singing styles

Tool and A Perfect Circle are related if you didn't already know that part. Same band,(as far as I know) and Maynard is the singer in both, but A Perfect Circle is the drummer's brain child, if I recall right. I lean towards A Perfect Circle, my friend leans towards Tool. I love the video for "Doomed," being shot in black and white and just the faces of the various band members passing through the light and shadow. "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" is pretty much nuclear 50s I think, and has some phrases I really like, "final curtain call in all our atomic pageantry" and "mushroom cloud confetti."

EDIT: I guess I could mention that both the songs I mentioned refer to pretty much the breakdown of society, "Doomed" maybe being anti-religious, and "So Long..." being...not sure what to say. I guess, our own willful ignorance of the world going to **** around us. And maybe, then some.

I'm considering getting a refund on my Tool ticket, since I could use the money back, but the concert is supposed to be rescheduled here, so I'm on the fence. I've only been to 2 concerts in my life (Linkin Park, Queen ft. Adam Lambert), and I doubt I'll be going to many more in the future so will fence sit for a bit more before deciding.

I guess I should add to my previous post, I'm pretty darn ignorant about bands in general.

I wonder when people say a band is "goth" are they talking about lyrics, song style, mood, or maybe aesthetic? Make-up, costume, etc.

46WeeTurtle
juny 3, 2020, 5:37am

Well this is interesting. Again, I think I only know 2 songs by name and group but I'm sure I'd know a few more if I sat and listened.

"The Story of Goth in 33 Songs"
A list and a silly video.
https://pitchfork.com/features/lists-and-guides/the-story-of-goth-in-33-songs/?p...

47absurdeist
juny 3, 2020, 10:12am

Enjoying the conversation very much.

>46 WeeTurtle: nice to see Type O Negative & the Misfits get mentioned. An early member of the latter, coincidentally, drummer Joey Image, died a few days ago.

Trisomie 21 is a band worthy of mentioning here. While not a goth band in the strictest sense, elements of goth comprise part of their style and sound. "The Last Song", from '85 or '86, I believe, is a good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6vafiYpH1Y

48benbrainard8
Editat: juny 3, 2020, 10:51pm

Thank you, I find solace in this list, it seems like our list(s) above this do mention quite a few of these songs. The only one that threw me a bit was having "Tainted Love" (1981) by Soft Cell in the list. But most are dead on, and I really enjoyed the interview with Peter Murphy.

I'll watch the "silly video" this weekend.

I've begun listening to Spotify collections of Cradle of Filth. I tend to like many of the songs where there are female counterpart singer (like song called "Stay" from their album Thornography), or that have female back-up vocalist(s).

Apparently the song "Stay" has history that ties into what I mention below, totally inadvertent find on my part:

"Thornography is the seventh studio album by English extreme metal band Cradle of Filth. It was released on 17 October 2006, by record label Roadrunner. It was produced by former Anthrax guitarist Rob Caggiano"

The guitar work isn't bad, actually reminds me sometimes of older Metallica and some Anthrax.

Anthrax--"Anthrax is an American heavy metal band from New York City, formed in 1981 by rhythm guitarist Scott Ian and bassist Dan Lilker. The group is considered one of the leaders of the thrash metal scene from the 1980s and is one of the "Big Four" thrash metal bands with Metallica, Megadeth, and Slayer; Anthrax is the only one of the four from the East Coast, and often credited as one of the early thrash metal bands to emerge from there, along with Overkill and Nuclear Assault.1 The band has released 11 studio albums."

I'll keep listening and will revisit the two songs you've mentioned previously, "Byronic Man' and "The Death of Love". Eh, I can't tell if I find the lyrics to be offensive, because honestly, and maybe because I'm listening to the songs in my car while drive to and fro work, I sometimes can't tell what he's actually saying lyric-wise.

49benbrainard8
Editat: juny 3, 2020, 10:39pm

Hello absurdeist, thank you for joining our thread. I, too, was happy to see The Misfits in that list.

I'll give a listen to Trisomie 21 over the coming next couple of days. I did take a peek at the video, and will re-watch it. I like the sound, reminds me a bit of Clan of Xymox (maybe Clan of Xymox came later, after Trisomie 21?).

Trisomie 21 is a French group, according to what I'm viewing online. Curious to know if they sing both English and in French?

Here was brief in description I read, if anyone else wants to look up: "Trisomie 21 is a French cold wave group, formed in Lille, France in 1980 by brothers Philippe and Hervé Lomprez".

I've got to admit, I've never come across the expression "cold wave group", anyone know what/where that expression comes from?

Best to you and everyone!

50housefulofpaper
juny 4, 2020, 7:15pm

>49 benbrainard8:
Again, I had assumed "Cold Wave" was a recent term being used retrospectively (like "Yacht Rock" for AOR) but no, it's been around since 1977! (I had to look at the Wikipedia definition).

I am really starting to feel like the jazz fan who only accepts Dixieland as "real" jazz! I listened to the 30 tracks selected by Pitchfork and pretty much once we were into the '90s I was thinking ..."that ain't Goth...that ain't Goth!" :)

Generally I have never got on with anything too heavy, too full-on Rock, so a lot of these bands don't really appeal to me. There are some artists I'll follow up on, though, and some that I haven't listened to for a while and will revisit.

I think - despite what I said (tongue in cheek) - just now the borders of Goth music are just too fuzzy to be strictly defined. Maybe it's easier to say "this is music that Goths like/will listen to" than "this is Goth music" (especially when so many of the bands and artists will refuse to be boxed in by the term - not even say, Siouxsie Sioux!)

Context is important too - the Pitchfork article explains what Soft Cell's "Tainted Love" is in the list but it makes no sense from the perspective of the UK. It was number one in the UK singles chart (not the dance chart, just bestselling singles, full stop) and in fact the bestselling single of 1981 (thanks again, Wikipeidia) and so never had that secret or cult cachet.

Oh and maybe a minor mystery resolved...A Pefect Circle credit early (Kings of the Wild Frontier) Adam and the Ants as an influence. Their "tribal" sound - I guess that refers to their "Burundi beat" which they approximated with two drummers.

51LolaWalser
juny 4, 2020, 7:53pm

As I was entering CDs today I noticed something curious on Discogs--there are many genres and a gajillion styles ("Math Rock"? "Illbient"? "Space Rock"?... wha...?) but no "Goth" and only two things with "Gothic", Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal.

Incidentally, Discogs is a crowd-sourced database so if anyone feels very strongly about classification, I think all you need to contribute is register and start filing away.

52WeeTurtle
juny 5, 2020, 2:15am

>50 housefulofpaper: Re: the 90s, in that little video they describe the 90s as basically being a goth explosion and that anything could be made goth with enough eyeliner, ultimately culminating in...Hot Topic. I've been in one of those. Or rather, I walked in a few steps, looked at the merchandise, and the first thought in my head was "do any of the people in the store actually know what they are buying? Or is it cool because it's cool?"

53benbrainard8
Editat: juny 5, 2020, 10:19am

Heh, I too had that thought when I first went into a Hot Topic store/shop.... until I saw a man in mid-thirties buying a stack of what appeared to be LPs that were advertised as something having to do with Dr. Who. No, I didn't have guts to ask him what they were. LPs re Dr. Who? To this day, I can't figure out what exactly they were (yes, to large to be DVDs).

And I managed to find a iconic Joy Division shirt, the one that has the cover of the album Closer, at that same Hot Topic store/shop. Alas, that Joy Division shirt----which my son then borrowed from me...forever more. Since then he's bought another Joy Division shirt. (As a side note, I've hidden my pristine Smiths t-shirt I bought about 25-30 years ago, he'll never ever find it----)

Hm, I'm nearing end of Cradle of Filth play-list on Spotify. I'll preface by saying, if someone really likes those four metal/speed metal/heavy metal/thrash bands we'd mentioned previously: Metallica, Anthrax, Megadeth, and Slayer, then they'll probably like Cradle of Filth, too.

I didn't find the words particularly egregious but that's probably because half the time he's singing in what I'd call a growl/hollar. Which is ok, because if you want to know the lyrics, then you'll look 'em up and read them, right?

There were a few songs I found that had interesting, how shall we say---- orchestral flourishes or accompaniments. And preferably a female singing, too, whether as co-singer or back-up. So, thinking of Housefulofpaper and LW, I'm listing those songs below:

--Bathory Aria
--The 13th Caesar
--Satyriasis
--Nymphetamine--Jezebel Deva Mix
--Absinth with Faust
--Lilith Immaculate
--The Death of Love
--Cradle of Filth and Ville Valo (H.I.M.), Byronic Man

Sorry, I didn't mention the albums from which these songs are. But if any of you have any type of decent streaming music services, you should be able to find these songs with relative ease. Let me know if you need the album names, too.

I'll be soothing my ears a bit this weekend, with a Spotify playlist, "This is Debussy" (yes as in Claude Debussy) and Trisomie 21...

Cheers and have a great weekend.

54benbrainard8
juny 5, 2020, 10:09am

I'm in perfect agreement with you on all these views, Housefulofpaper. Yes, sometimes there's a bit of mix and match. And as you mention, even some of these artists have disavowed their "Goth" labels (e.g. Robert Smith of The Cure. Siouxsie Sioux). Maybe they feel they're being too narrowly defined, and I'll certainly let them have that...

I'm finding the new groups I've been introduced by you, Lola, absurdeist, & WeeTurtle, to be quite awesome, thank you! I've added Spotify collections of H.I.M., A Perfect Circle, Nightwish, Trisomie 21, and (many of the) other groups that I'd either overlooked or had never been acquainted with, so it's been really enjoyable.

Keep 'em coming we say.

55housefulofpaper
juny 5, 2020, 6:51pm

>52 WeeTurtle:
It took me a while to find the video...seeing an ad playing and the sound muted I scrolled right past it several times!

The '90s felt so different to me. In the UK Goth went out of fashion in the late '80s because Rave (nobody called it EDM) was so big: "The Second Summer of Love", The Haceienda Club in Manchester (financed by New Order's profits coming to Factory Records, ironically), and so on. Then into the 'early 90s Grunge and US chart acts were big, and then Britpop from the middle of the decade.

Where the video says Goth was everywhere, to me it looked as if it had simply been assimilated into mainstream rock.

Here's a little comedy sketch from 2000 - by which time Goths like this were already more than a decade out of date.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vC7PnGWf1Y

56benbrainard8
Editat: juny 5, 2020, 8:22pm

Another really interesting viewpoint about the entire "Manchester scene" can be found the movie "24 Hour Party People", that has Steve Coogan playing Tony Wilson, one of the founders of Factory Records.

Here's a brief description: "24 Hour Party People is a 2002 British comedy-drama biopic film about Manchester 's popular music community from 1976 to 1992, and specifically about Factory Records. It was written by Frank Cottrell Boyce and directed by Michael Winterbottom. The film was entered into the 2002 Cannes Film Festival. It received positive reviews"

Storyline: "Manchester 1976: Cambridge educated Tony Wilson, Granada TV presenter, is at a Sex Pistols gig. Totally inspired by this pivotal moment in music history, he and his friends set up a record label, Factory Records, signing first Joy Division (who go on to become New Order) then James and the Happy Mondays, who all become seminal artists of their time. What ensues is a tale of music, sex, drugs, larger-than-life characters, and the birth of one of the most famous dance clubs in the world, The Hacienda - a mecca for clubbers as famous as the likes of Studio 54. Graphically depicting the music and dance heritage of Manchester from the late 70's to the early 90's, this comedy documents the vibrancy that made Mad-chester the place in the world that you would most like to be."

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0274309/

It also has a great soundtrack, I must say.

57benbrainard8
Editat: juny 5, 2020, 8:28pm

I love that "you can't expose your body as a Goth, you'd look really stupid..."

Heh, if did a stroll in shorts my white legs would blind everyone within a 20 metre radius.

58benbrainard8
Editat: juny 5, 2020, 8:36pm

And believe me, South Park has had lot of fun with Goths and Emos:

https://youtu.be/WWP_vEcWqMo

And

https://youtu.be/93IL7s0wJ3Q

59benbrainard8
Editat: juny 14, 2020, 3:48pm

Let's enjoy a list of famous female Goth singers/artists. consider a challenge to see how many you know from reading their names---recognize the groups they sing for?

--Siouxsie Sioux, "Some bands that claim her as their muse include: Massive Attack, The Cure, and LCD Soundsystem.

--Lene Lovich, "Lili-Marlene Premilovich (born March 30, 1949), known professionally as Lene Lovich (/ˈleɪnə ˈlʌvɪtʃ/), is an English-American singer, songwriter and musician. She first gained attention in 1979 with the release of her hit single "Lucky Number", which peaked at number 3 on the UK Singles Chart and made her a leading figure of the new wave music scene"

--Catharina "Nina" Hagen, " is a German singer, songwriter, and actress. She is known for her theatrical vocals and rose to prominence during the punk and new wave movements in the late 1970s and early 1980s."

--Tina Root, go find Switchblade Symphony's "Dissolve"

--Alison Shaw, "Formed in 1985 in Portsmouth, England by siblings Alison and Jim Shaw and named after the many mechanical cranes around the city's docks, Cranes are best known for the childlike, high-pitched vocals of lead singer Alison Shaw".

--Amy Lee, " She definitely managed to climb the charts as the front for Evanescence."

--Elizabeth Fraser, of the indelible Cocteau Twins

--Johnette Napolitano, Concrete Blonde----who can forget awesome album called "Bloodletting"?

--Chibi, lead singer of the Canadian gothic industrial band, The Birthday Massacre. Listen & watch video to their song "Red Stars"

https://youtu.be/E23WtcbpOZ8

--Lady Galore, sing with the Lords of Acid's, "Vocalist for Lords Of Acid, then known as Lady Galore. She split with the Lords while they were on tour with My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult in 1995. In 1998, Buzz McCoy hired her to become one of the Bomb Gang Girlz and he also began working with her on her first solo album as Cherrie Blue ."

--Zohra Atash, "Azar Swan is her project with Atash and Joshua Strawn, created after dissolving their previous band Religious to Damn in 2012"

--Toni Halliday , leader singer of Curve. This is a group that I personally can vouch for, they've excellent albums, singles. Listen to the song "Blindfold":

https://youtu.be/KufHiyMcurY

(as an aside, I saw Curve here in Seattle in early 1990's and the end of this particular song felt like it'd blown my head clean off....talk about "WALL OF SOUND")

Curve's music has been described as "sonic razor blades"... And if you like the group Garbage, singer Shirley Manson, then you owe it to yourself to listen to Curve, as pre-cursor to Garbage

--Lucia Cifarelli Konietzko, "is an American musician, best known for her work with industrial band KMFDM. She was formerly the vocalist for the band Drill and also performed in KMFDM offshoots MDFMK, KGC, and Schwein"

Goth bands that have had female singers and female back-up singers:

Bauhaus
Siouxsie & the Banshees
Joy Division
Xmal Deutschland
Sisters of Mercy
Killing Joke
Clan of Xymox, singer Anka Wolbert definitely ranks and maybe should be listed above since she co-founded Clan of Xymox and Xymox, in 1981
The Birthday Party

Ok, let's begin here! Any folks I'm missing?

60housefulofpaper
juny 14, 2020, 7:26pm

>59 benbrainard8:

I can add/suggest a couple of names.

Julianne Regan of All About Eve. Their music was to these ears a revival of '60s Folk Rock rather than Goth, but they were definitely treated as a Goth band in the '80s. And checking the relevant Wikipedia entry I see that all the band members had histories in other unquestionably Goth bands.

Danielle Dax, with the Lemon Kittens and as a solo artist. Her music evolved over the years. By about '87 there was a big Bo Diddley riff behind most of her songs, then she switched to dance music, before leaving music for interior design.

61benbrainard8
juny 14, 2020, 11:23pm

Thank for the additional names/artists. I'm adding them to my on-going lists in my Spotify account.

Keep the suggestions coming!

62LWMusic
jul. 24, 2020, 3:02pm

I'm adding CDs and fishing for covers online and this reference came to my atention:

James Hannaham (1997). Goth and the Glorification of Suffering in Rock Music. Cambridge, Massachusetts: MIT Press. pp. 91–119. Bela Lugosi's Dead and I Don't Feel So Good Either

lol

63benbrainard8
Editat: jul. 25, 2020, 12:55pm

I've always felt a bit of humor compliments Goth Music.

Golly gee, it's difficult being "dark' all the time. Maybe it takes practice?

Or at least we should all accept, enjoy, and live with it---with a quiet grace and humility----thinking of Leonard Cohen and Johnny Cash right now.

Has anyone ever run a Geek, Nerd, and Goth thread?

64housefulofpaper
jul. 25, 2020, 9:04pm

>63 benbrainard8:

Has anyone ever run a Geek, Nerd, and Goth thread?

They all are, aren't they? Or I'd hope they never preclude a bit of humour, nerdiness or geekiness :)

If you have something in mind that deserves its own thread, please feel free to start one.

65WeeTurtle
Editat: jul. 26, 2020, 4:40am

I was listening to Bauhaus "Bela Lugosi's Dead" but wasn't too enamored with it. It felt somewhat simple actually, kind of thin. Though, it does make me think of the difference (of all things) between what people think gothic fonts look like and what gothic fonts actually look like.

It does listen better late at night though, now that I'm running it again.

EDIT: Oh geez, I got into a zone of just listening and the vocalist actually surprised me when he started.

66benbrainard8
Editat: jul. 26, 2020, 1:58pm

I really like Peter Murphy's voice, and have greatly enjoyed his solo works/albums.

I'd like you to listen to these two songs, tell me what you think!

Bauhaus, "She's in Parties", from "Burning from the Inside" , nothing there is a fairly iconic photo of David J. , I've got it on postcard, showing him with the light swaying away from his face, like in this video.

https://youtu.be/QXh30qF7D38

Peter Murphy, "Loctaine", from Lion, Peter Murphy

https://youtu.be/jzr3GSBBPCQ

For pure transformative value, many people think the song below is the first "Dark Wave" song---it also does mark the end of Bauhaus as a group, because for much of the production of the album, Peter Murphy was out sick, that left the remaining three, Daniel Ash, Kevin Haskins, and David J., to write, produce, and sing much of the album, so when listening to the album, I hear much of Love and Rockets, than of Bauhaus.

Bauhaus, "Who Killed Mr. Moonlight", from their last album, "Burning from the Inside":

https://youtu.be/cjEj-8PerIs

I hope that you find as much beauty in this music as I do. Even if it's a bit rather melancholic...

67WeeTurtle
jul. 27, 2020, 2:17am

>66 benbrainard8: Well, first up, "She's in Parties" does really sound new to me, but that's likely because I can hear influences in it that I'm not really aware of (or vice versa, or I'm just not good at telling apart bands from other there. Part of it reminded me of Boomtown Rats, though I've only heard one song of theirs as well

The video is neat, but my headache of the moment doesn't like the flashy parts. Is the image you're talking about at the start or towards the end? That last minute with the shots that show the light coming off his eye right at his pupil was dramatic.

I like the bass, which is rare in most songs. The gap between the bass and electric sounds is a little alien at first, but I imagine I could get used to it. Sort of that thin feeling again in parts. Part of Bauhaus' style?

68WeeTurtle
jul. 27, 2020, 2:32am

>66 benbrainard8: Okay, I definitely like his solo voice better than his Bauhaus stuff. I'm listening to it a second time right now. I don't have much of an idea of what he's saying (I tend to figure that out later) but the music is right up my alley, with the greater fullness of it.

69benbrainard8
Editat: jul. 29, 2020, 10:33am

The photo is from the 00:59 of the video. I believe you can see it in this composite photo:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=2BAQ9WaJ&id=8D71E0...

I've always found Bauhaus music to be a bit purposefully off kilter, as if they're trying to keep you a bit off balance

The entire "The Sky's Gone Out" (1982), and "Mask" (1981) are outstanding albums, I was fortunate enough to purchase them in Japan, so they've additional liner photos for the CDs and lyrics in both English and in Japanese.

Peter Murphy has quite an extensive discography as a solo artist, but most people would swear by his album, "Deep" (1989).

And for all things Bauhaus--- Peter Murphy did a solo tour where he sang Bauhaus songs, https://www.allmusic.com/album/mr-moonlight-tour-35-years-of-bauhaus-mw000275850...