Domestic Terrorism

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Domestic Terrorism

1margd
juny 10, 2020, 6:38am

No Sign Of Antifa So Far In Justice Department Cases Brought Over Unrest
Ryan Lucas | June 9, 2020

U.S. Attorney General William Barr has repeatedly blamed anti-fascist activists for the violence that has erupted during demonstrations over George Floyd's death, but federal court records show no sign of so-called antifa links so far in cases brought by the Justice Department.

NPR has reviewed court documents of 51 individuals facing federal charges in connection with the unrest. As of Tuesday morning, none is alleged to have links to the antifa movement.

Of the cases brought so far, 20 involve allegations related to arson; 16 involve the illegal possession of a firearm, more often than not by a felon; another eight people face charges related to inciting a riot or civil disorder.

The single instance in which an extremist group is mentioned in court documents is a case against three Nevada men. Federal prosecutors allege the trio belong to the right-wing Boogaloo movement that wants to bring about a civil war. The men have been charged with plotting violence during Las Vegas protests...

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/09/873278314/no-sign-of-antifa-so-far-in-justice-dep...

2lriley
juny 10, 2020, 7:32am

It's kind of a weird coincidence that the United States version of Antifa has roots in the Minneapolis punk rock scene. One of the first if not the first were a gang called the Baldies (and I'm getting this from a wikipedia entry)--left wing skinheads who didn't like the idea of racist white supremacists taking over their music scene. So they started fighting them for real. Later on they formed a group called Anti-racist Action. But anyway generally what they do is follow white supremacist groups around the country with the aim of disrupting their events or doxing racists--letting people who live in their neighborhoods know exactly who they are. I don't have a problem with any of that.

I don't get the idea that Antifa is in any way involved in any kind of violence with the protests around the Floyd murder. I'm sure many have taken part in the protests but I don't think in any real organized way. The protests speak for themselves and have grown generically. There's really not a whole lot to add as to what the purpose of these protests.

The republican right wing is fine with the Ku Klux Klan and white racism and bigotry---nobody in the Trump administration (or previous administrations for that matter) has ever really tried to outlaw the Klan or any number of violent white supremacist groups---organizations that by the way have real leadership structures and that are responsible for hundreds if not thousands of murders. No one ever goes after the Klan's leadership. Why is that? As far as I know Antifa has never killed anyone. They've been involved in numerous physical confrontations. They've busted store windows and created some mayhem but they're not out there trying to kill people because they don't like their skin color or religious background......yet somehow they're the terrorist organization of choice for the Trump administration. The real terrorists--those with a long history of murder, racism and religious hatred get a free ride. This is how the United States prioritizes.

3margd
Editat: juny 10, 2020, 9:14am

Also, as posted on Trumpian lows thread, the 75YO man shoved in Buffalo was a Catholic peace & justice activist, not Antifa provocateur as Trump intimated.

Martin Gugino is a Catholic peace activist, not an 'Antifa provocateur,' friends say
Yonat Shimron | June 9, 2020

...Friends of the retired computer scientist described Gugino as a devout Catholic and a graduate of Canisius High School, a private Jesuit school in Buffalo, who is a passionate advocate for multiple causes on behalf of the poor and disenfranchised. Gugino spent his retirement lending a hand to multiple causes, among them Black Lives Matter...

https://religionnews.com/2020/06/09/martin-gugino-is-a-catholic-peace-activist-n...

4lriley
Editat: juny 10, 2020, 1:55pm

#3--yeah, this 75 year old Gugino according to Trump--fell harder than he was pushed and all to make the police and by extension Donald look bad and this thing of bleeding out of his ears must have been deliberate too. You'd think some of these cops would figure it out too that when you're knocking down frailish looking 75 year olds usually you don't look very good but either I'm sure the team of Bill Barr, Rudy Giuliani, Jared Kushner and Stephen Miller have ideas how to explain it away.

The thing is Donald doesn't even have to go there. This is all self-inflicted 'I'm a stupid asshole' shit. Then again I guess he does have to go there because that's exactly what he is.

5DugsBooks
juny 10, 2020, 2:26pm

Thanks for the heads up info in the thread - I don't have the time to read around so much any more.

6TrippB
juny 10, 2020, 2:27pm

Antifa "activists" have reportedly taken over part of Seattle, and are now requesting “folks with firearms” to help defend the seized territory. The report includes their list of demands.

“On Tuesday “Free Capitol Hill” the antifa “Autonomous Zone” released its list of demands from the Seattle and Washington State governments.

The list includes reparations, ending the police and free stuff — pretty much what you would expect from a bunch of illiterate leftie kids.”


“Given the historical moment, we’ll begin with our demands pertaining to the Justice System.
1. The Seattle Police Department and attached court system are beyond reform. We do not request reform, we demand abolition. We demand that the Seattle Council and the Mayor defund and abolish the Seattle Police Department and the attached Criminal Justice Apparatus. This means 100% of funding, including existing pensions for Seattle Police. At an equal level of priority we also demand that the city disallow the operations of ICE in the city of Seattle.
2. In the transitionary period between now and the dismantlement of the Seattle Police Department, we demand that the use of armed force be banned entirely. No guns, no batons, no riot shields, no chemical weapons, especially against those exercising their First Amendment right as Americans to protest.
3. We demand an end to the school-to-prison pipeline and the abolition of youth jails. Get kids out of prison, get cops out of schools. We also demand that the new youth prison being built in Seattle currently be repurposed.
4. We demand that not the City government, nor the State government, but that the Federal government launch a full-scale investigation into past and current cases of police brutality in Seattle and Washington, as well as the re-opening of all closed cases reported to the Office of Police Accountability. In particular, we demand that cases particular to Seattle and Washington be reopened where no justice has been served, namely the cases of Iosia Faletogo, Damarius Butts, Isaiah Obet, Tommy Le, Shaun Fuhr, and Charleena Lyles.
5. We demand reparations for victims of police brutality, in a form to be determined.
6. We demand that the City of Seattle make the names of officers involved in police brutality a matter of public record. Anonymity should not even be a privilege in public service.
7. We demand a retrial of all People in Color currently serving a prison sentence for violent crime, by a jury of their peers in their community.
8. We demand decriminalization of the acts of protest, and amnesty for protestors generally, but specifically those involved in what has been termed “The George Floyd Rebellion” against the terrorist cell that previously occupied this area known as the Seattle Police Department. This includes the immediate release of all protestors currently being held in prison after the arrests made at 11th and Pine on Sunday night and early Saturday morning June 7th and 8th, and any other protesters arrested in the past two weeks of the uprising, the name Evan Hreha in particular comes to mind who filmed Seattle police macing a young girl and is now in jail.
9. We demand that the City of Seattle and the State Government release any prisoner currently serving time for a marijuana-related offense and expunge the related conviction.
10. We demand the City of Seattle and State Government release any prisoner currently serving time just for resisting arrest if there are no other related charges, and that those convictions should also be expunged.
11. We demand that prisoners currently serving time be given the full and unrestricted right to vote, and for Washington State to pass legislation specifically breaking from Federal law that prevents felons from being able to vote.
12. We demand an end to prosecutorial immunity for police officers in the time between now and the dissolution of the SPD and extant justice system.
13. We demand the abolition of imprisonment, generally speaking, but especially the abolition of both youth prisons and privately-owned, for-profit prisons.
14. We demand in replacement of the current criminal justice system the creation of restorative/transformative accountability programs as a replacement for imprisonment.
15. We demand autonomy be given to the people to create localized anti-crime systems.
16. We demand that the Seattle Police Department, between now and the time of its abolition in the near future, empty its “lost and found” and return property owned by denizens of the city.
17. We demand justice for those who have been sexually harassed or abused by the Seattle Police Department or prison guards in the state of Washington.
18. We demand that between now and the abolition of the SPD that each and every SPD officer turn on their body cameras, and that the body camera video of all Seattle police should be a matter of easily accessible public record.
19. We demand that the funding previously used for Seattle Police be redirected into: A) Socialized Health and Medicine for the City of Seattle. B) Free public housing, because housing is a right, not a privilege. C) Public education, to decrease the average class size in city schools and increase teacher salary. D) Naturalization services for immigrants to the United States living here undocumented. (We demand they be called “undocumented” because no person is illegal.) E) General community development. Parks, etc.
We also have economic demands that must be addressed.
1. We demand the de-gentrification of Seattle, starting with rent control.
2. We demand the restoration of city funding for arts and culture to re-establish the once-rich local cultural identity of Seattle.
3. We demand free college for the people of the state of Washington, due to the overwhelming effect that education has on economic success, and the correlated overwhelming impact of poverty on people of color, as a form of reparations for the treatment of Black people in this state and country.
4. We demand that between now and the abolition of the SPD that Seattle Police be prohibited from performing “homeless sweeps” that displace and disturb our homeless neighbors, and on equal footing we demand an end to all evictions.
5. We demand a decentralized election process to give the citizens of Seattle a greater ability to select candidates for public office such that we are not forced to choose at the poll between equally undesirable options. There are multiple systems and policies in place which make it impractical at best for working-class people to run for public office, all of which must go, starting with any fees associated with applying to run for public office.
Related to economic demands, we also have demands pertaining to what we would formally call “Health and Human Services.”
1. We demand the hospitals and care facilities of Seattle employ black doctors and nurses specifically to help care for black patients.
2. We demand the people of Seattle seek out and proudly support Black-owned businesses. Your money is our power and sustainability.
3. We demand that the city create an entirely separate system staffed by mental health experts to respond to 911 calls pertaining to mental health crises, and insist that all involved in such a program be put through thorough, rigorous training in conflict de-escalation.
Finally, let us now address our demands regarding the education system in the City of Seattle and State of Washington.
1. We demand that the history of Black and Native Americans be given a significantly greater focus in the Washington State education curriculum.
2. We demand that thorough anti-bias training become a legal requirement for all jobs in the education system, as well as in the medical profession and in mass media.
3. We demand the City of Seattle and State of Washington remove any and all monuments dedicated to historical figures of the Confederacy, whose treasonous attempts to build an America with slavery as a permanent fixture were an affront to the human race.


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/06/antifa-releases-list-demands-taking-6-s...

7lriley
Editat: juny 10, 2020, 3:37pm

#6--I think I would agree with most all of their demands.

......but also that you're very much exaggerating the insurrectionary state of affairs. The only reports of such are from far right sources. Not even FOX seems to be touching it.

8TrippB
Editat: juny 10, 2020, 4:35pm

>7 lriley:
The situation is probably overstated. Maybe it was mostly an Antifa dream. Still, I don’t understand why people keep defending Antifa. For some reason, they’re often held up as peaceful liberal darlings. Even CNN has admitted they’re a “very violent” and dangerous group. Maybe no one was watching that day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g96Es2ZGo8w

The 2019 active shooter in Dayton, Ohio, who murdered nine people was linked to Antifa. He had also previously protested as part of the antifa group at a KKK counter-rally.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/cnn-dayton-shooter-had-extreme-left-views-was-pro-...

An Antifa activist tried to blow up an ICE facility in Tacoma, Washington. He was killed in the attempt, and Antifa reacted by posting public notices of tribute for their martyred comrade. If he had been successful in his attempt, innocent people could have been killed or injured.
https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/antifa-martyr-wrote-this-manifesto-before-at...

Antifa thugs attacked and robbed a journalist in Portland last July. The journalist’s injuries could have killed him if he hadn’t received appropriate medical care.
https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/why-a-journalist-was-attacked-by-antifa-in-po...

“Lisa Hogan, Samuel Miller, and Skye Elder were arrested last week and charged with various state jail felonies after they smashed into a boarded-up Target, destroyed and ripped out surveillance cameras, and looted the store, stealing and damaging over $20,000 in property. Hogan is also suspected of streaming a Facebook Live video during the burglary and encouraging others to join them.”https://texasscorecard.com/local/antifa-members-arrested-for-looting-in-austin-a...

I’d say streaming their actions live on FaceBook while encouraging others to join is also known as inciting a riot.

Antifa encourages violence:
“The justification of the use of violence is that Nazi ideology at its very core is founded on violence and on wielding power by any means,” said Mike Isaacson, one of the founders of Smash Racism D.C., an antifa organization in Washington.

Isaacson is unequivocal in his defense of violence as a legitimate tool to combat the creeping threat of what he deems authoritarianism.
“There is the question of whether these people should feel safe organizing as Nazis in public, and I don’t think they should,” said Isaacson.”

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/350524-antifa-activists-say-violenc...

This Liberal Carried an American Flag to Protest Fascism in Portland. Antifa Cracked His Head Open With a Bat.
https://reason.com/2018/08/21/antifa-portland-evan-welch-violence/?itm_source=pa...

“Last January, Charles Landeros, 30, wearing a “Smash the Patriarchy’ t-shirt, went to his daughter’s middle school in Eugene, Oregon, to discuss a custody dispute. When asked by two resource officers to leave the building, Charles refused. They attempted to place him under arrest, and he pulled out a handgun and fired two rounds at them. He missed and was killed by returning gunfire from one of the officers. Charles’ daughter was feet away. Authorities later found Landeros was carrying an extra magazine on his belt.” His local Antifa group claimed him (them?) as one of their own. “Charles Landeros, beloved comrade and street medic, was murdered by Eugene police 2 days ago, the group tweeted. “They were a non-binary activist of color who did amazing work in their community and were gunned down in front of their children’s school.”
https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-far-left-violence-extremism-deadly-year-opnion-1...

9lriley
juny 10, 2020, 8:11pm

Let's bring this back to Donald who has an antifa bee in his fucking bonnet. It's kind of like his hydroxicholoroquine thing. That was another bee he just couldn't let go and had to make an ass out of himself over and over again. It's typical for him 'going with his gut' (which is pretty large) to decide something before any facts are in. Here he had to show the world he could spot someone Antifa so the hapless Gugino became his target. He's got not a shred of evidence to back it up but he makes this fucking absurd claim anyway. This is the guy who is supposed to be the President of the United States and this is the stupid moronic shit that he does.

10John5918
Editat: juny 11, 2020, 12:12am

'Riots', 'mobs', 'chaos': the establishment always frames change as dangerous (Guardian)

Last week, President Donald Trump described the recent protests as “rioting” by an “angry mob”. His linguistic framing of the widespread unrest was supplemented by the very title of the 1807 measure he threatened to invoke: the rarely used “Insurrection Act”, which allows states to request federal troops to help squelch internal disturbances. Much of the resulting press coverage settled on the more neutral descriptor “chaos”, a theme amplified by Trump’s allies...

The word “riot”, as well as the terms “mob”, “chaos” and “insurrection”, is alarming language that creates a deliberate mode of understanding in the listener. These words are often used to delegitimize and dismiss Black movements – to make them appear too far removed from civil society to be taken seriously. Yet these terms are often in conflict with reality. They also obscure the perspective of those most qualified to judge: the participants themselves.

While many politicians and pundits have attempted to dismiss the current uprisings as “riots” – intimating that they are mere free-for-alls that lack purpose – that could not be further from the truth. Many of the uprisings that white Americans and Europeans have historically termed “riots” were, in fact, concentrated efforts to overturn systems of oppression in the United States and across the globe...


>8 TrippB: I notice you also choose to use the word "riot".

11margd
Editat: juny 11, 2020, 6:27am

Trumpian responses are wildly different when protesters invade Seattle City Hall
compared with armed protesters in Lansing Capitol, just a month ago...
The elected leaders are Dems in both states. The issues and the demonstrators, however...

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump | 11:01 PM - Jun 10, 2020:
Radical Left Governor @JayInslee and the Mayor of Seattle are being taunted and played at a level that our great Country has never seen before. Take back your city NOW. If you don’t do it, I will. This is not a game. These ugly Anarchists must be stooped IMMEDIATELY. MOVE FAST!
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/11/trump-seattle-autonomous-zone-i...)

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump | 8:42 AM · May 1, 2020:
The Governor of Michigan should give a little, and put out the fire. These are very good people, but they are angry. They want their lives back again, safely! See them, talk to them, make a deal.
(https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/01/trump-michigan-protesters-gretch...)

12lriley
juny 11, 2020, 7:35am

#11--those he sees as on his side can invade state govt. houses with assault weapons and intimidate to their heart's desire. Then he clears out the Black Lives Matter protesters with brute force so he can do selfies in front of a church with a bible in his hand.......and then here he goes again threatening to send in the army after perceived enemies. If you're white and toting a gun and wearing a MAGA hat you deserve protection otherwise you can fuck off.

13TrippB
juny 11, 2020, 7:49am

>10 John5918: ">8 TrippB: TrippB: I notice you also choose to use the word "riot".

Yes, I do.

ri·ot
/ˈrīət/
noun
noun: riot; plural noun: riots
1. a violent disturbance of the peace by a crowd.

In retrospect, I probably should have used the word insurrection for the chaos caused by the violent mob in Seattle.

in·sur·rec·tion
/ˌinsəˈrekSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: insurrection; plural noun: insurrections
a violent uprising against an authority or government.

There are now reports that the rioting thugs in Seattle who've taken over an area of the city are now extorting money from the business owners within their "autonomous zone," with threats to burn down their businesses if they don't pay. Something needs to be done, as the city leaders have failed.

"The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone is an occupation and taking of hostages: none of the neighborhood’s residents voted for Antifa as their representative government. Rather than enforce the law, Seattle’s progressive political class capitulated to the mob and will likely make massive concessions over the next few months. This will embolden the Antifa coalition—and further undermine the rule of law in American cities."
https://www.city-journal.org/antifa-seattle-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/protesters-police-discuss-seattle-autonomous-zo...

14John5918
juny 11, 2020, 8:11am

>13 TrippB:

I see in the articles that you linked to that the pollice only say, "We’ve heard, anecdotally..." of the incidents you mention, and they ask people who actually experience them to report them to the police. But it's good to see the police negotiating with the protesters and trying to de-escalate tensions rather than trying to "take control of the situation", aka ramping up the violence, as usually happens in the USA. And while I don't approve of firearms and violence, and I prefer not to see anybody "with an AK-47 slung from his shoulder and a pistol attached to his hip", I wonder why there is such outrage in a country which apparently approves of people openly carrying firearms to public events, and which has even witnessed its president encouraging citizens to do so..

15TrippB
Editat: juny 11, 2020, 9:24am

>14 John5918:
In general, I don't appreciate people who protest with firearms. It's unnecessarily provocative and distracting.

However, the protests which President Trump acknowledged were 100% peaceful. No burning, no violence, no destruction of property. Amazing, right? A crowd full of armed people, and no one was hurt.

Contrast that to the recent George Floyd protests, in which city centers have been destroyed, multiple people injured, and at least 17 people have been killed. In Seattle, they’ve reportedly placed barricades around the perimeter of their seized area. Police are staying out, but does that also block firefighters and medical first responders? The good people in that area are being held hostage, and their property is at the mercy of the mob.

If they’re being peaceful and not destroying property, then time taken for negotiation is reasonable and prudent. If the mob is extorting residents and property owners, or damaging property, the mob should be told to leave, and if they don’t, they should be purged.

From local reports, they invited Seattle’s homeless population to join them, and promptly ran out of food, so hunger may bring them out sooner than negotiations.

16TrippB
juny 11, 2020, 9:49am

The link below leads to an interesting conversation on Antifa terrorism, Black Lives Matter, and systemic racism....including the perspective of an immigrant to the US:

https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/1270751354663780352?s=12

17John5918
juny 11, 2020, 10:40am

>15 TrippB:

I would suggest that people who carry firearms to a public place are projecting power and intimidation. Whether that leads to physical violence or not will depend on the circumstances, but it is an act of violence regardless.

18TrippB
juny 11, 2020, 11:06am

>17 John5918:
"...but it is an act of violence regardless."

It could be argued, by extension of that reasoning, that anyone spray-painting "Kill all Cops," on the side of a building, or carrying a sign with such a message during a protest, is also committing an act of violence.

19John5918
Editat: juny 11, 2020, 11:56am

>18 TrippB:

It could indeed. It's very unfortunate that the situation has become so polarised, and that US society is so militarised, that many people don't seem to be aware that active and organised nonviolence is a more effective as well as a more humane way of channelling their anger to bring about change. But US society has created social and racial inequality and visited systemic violence on certain classes of people (particularly African-Americans and other minorities, as well as women) on a scale that was probably bound to erupt into violence sooner or later.

20John5918
juny 12, 2020, 6:55am

Trump told to back off Seattle's Chaz police-free zone (BBC)

State authorities in the north-western US state of Washington have hit back after President Donald Trump threatened to "take back" a police-free district controlled by protesters in Seattle. Governor Jay Inslee said Mr Trump should stay out of the state's business, and Seattle's mayor said any invasion of the city would be illegal...

21John5918
juny 14, 2020, 12:32am

At Trafalgar square protest, the atmosphere was ugly, the air heavy with threat from the far right

Then, seemingly from nowhere, but probably coming from Whitehall, there was a group of about 30 white men, trying to get through a line of riot police. These were the people who’d appointed themselves protectors of the statues, and widely dismissed, not least by the Black Lives Matters supporters, as football hooligans.

In Hyde Park Sasha Johnson, holding a Black Lives Matter placard, complained: “We’re painted as thugs when the real thugs are disguised as protecting those memorials. And when they’re drunk, they piss on those memorials”...


Boris Johnson condemns 'racist thuggery' of rightwing protesters in London

By 9pm on Saturday, police were reporting they had made more than 100 arrests “for offences including breach of the peace, violent disorder, assault on officers, possession of an offensive weapon, possession of class A drugs, and drunk and disorder”.

At one point, the demonstrators, who included far-right activists, took over Parliament Square and pelted mounted police with bottles, cans and a smoke canister. Later on, as police in riot gear formed lines to contain protesters in the square, they also came under attack from a hail of bottles and cans...


Both from the Guardian.

22margd
Editat: juny 14, 2020, 11:02am

How The Antifa Fantasy Spread In Small Towns Across The US
Rumors of roving bands of Antifa have followed small protests all over the United States. Why are people so ready to believe them?
Anne Helen Petersen | June 9, 2020

...“For lots of folks, it’s much easier to accept the idea that the only people who could be protesting the local police would be from outside the area,” (Travis McAdam, who’s tracked anti-government and hate groups for 15 years with the Montana Human Rights Network) explained. “It couldn’t possibly be that people of color in our community could have bad experiences with local law enforcement.” Or, for that matter, with locals in general.

“The ‘outsiders’ part of this narrative is just so important,” McAdam said. “It allows people to say, and to believe: ‘We don’t have problems in our community.’”

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/antifa-rumors-george-floy...

__________________________________________________

ETA:

Roofing company workers forced onto ground, held at gunpoint by man who thought they were Antifa
Felony charges are possible in wake of the incident in a Loveland, CO neighborhood. A victim was a CSU football player.
Kevin Vaughan | June 12, 2020. Updated: 6:22 PM MDT June 13, 2020

...man called police, said there were two men wearing masks near his home, and announced he was armed and going to go confront them

When officers arrived in the 2400 block of Dawn Court around 6 p.m. Thursday, they encountered Scott Gudmundsen...dressed in fatigues and holding two men on the ground at gunpoint

But the men weren’t troublemakers – they work for a local roofing company and were wearing blue polo shirts with the firm’s name on them, shorts, tennis shoes and white surgical-style masks, Shaffer said.

One of them is a Colorado State University football player who is 20 years old and works part-time at the roofing company. The student is a "man of color," according to a statement from the university.

...“They were canvassing the neighborhood because of the recent hail storms,” (Loveland Police Lt. Bob Shaffer)...

https://www.9news.com/article/news/investigations/loveland-man-antifa-roofing-em...

23lriley
juny 16, 2020, 8:27pm

Turns out Fox News photoshopped all the so-called images of Antifa people with assault weapons in Seattle. I guess this entire narrative that the POTUS and Republican lawmakers have latched onto was nothing but 'fake news'.

24John5918
juny 17, 2020, 12:17am

Air force sergeant linked to ‘boogaloo’ movement charged in federal officer’s death (Guardian)

An air force sergeant already jailed over the ambush killing of a California sheriff’s deputy was charged in connection with the shooting death of a federal security officer outside the US courthouse in Oakland during a night violent protest last month. Officials say the man has ties to the anti-government “boogaloo” movement...

25lriley
juny 17, 2020, 7:00am

#24--you can see how those on the right are trying to latch onto this and create this narrative about the protesters being violent and/or threatening the peace. Trump and republicans trying to change the narrative from racist cops to Antifa. Might wonder why they never go after the Klan or White Supremacist groups......but it's been the same since Charlottesville. Trump has no problem with the people in white hoods.

26John5918
juny 18, 2020, 12:42am

Number of far-right terrorist prisoners in Britain hits record high (Guardian)

The number of far-right prisoners convicted for terror offences in Great Britain climbed by a third last year to their highest recorded level, and accounts for more than one in six of all terrorists held in prison, according to official figures. Labour said the disclosure underlined the “dangerous threat” posed by the far right...

27proximity1
Editat: juny 18, 2020, 12:48pm

>16 TrippB:

I've never heard of and thus have no idea about Bill Mitchell. But I do know the name Dinesh D'Souza and for me that name is closely associated with what I describe by the terms "wacky" and "flake."

That's why I advise against relying on D'Souza's opinion to support anything you favor or to impeach anything you oppose.

But, to be fair, I started to listen to D'Souza's commentary in the video you linked and I only had to hear the first two minutes of an almost twelve-minute interview before hearing D'Souza seriously attempt to compare a store looter with a democratically-elected official presiding over or otherwise participating in what is an entirely legal and open
process of tax-policy-making with the aim of raising the legal tax levy, suggesting that such a tax change and those enacting it are all part of a process which is morally or ethically tantamount to outright theft by a mob of looters.

You don't do any favors for various things with which I--and I suppose you, as well-- sympathize by bringing such nonsense into the discussion for forensic or evidential support. That's the kind blunder which so far has been a signature of the stupidity of the pseudo-liberals we both regard as moronic wackos.

28kiparsky
juny 18, 2020, 1:25pm

>27 proximity1: Just a reminder:

Simple rules: attack ideas, not people. Be honest. Let others be honest. Be a gracious guest. Try to learn something. Be informative. Don't jerk your knees. Assume that the people who disagree with you are intelligent, but they just need more information to be Truly Enlightened.

29margd
juny 18, 2020, 4:16pm

Facebook removes Trump ads with symbol once used by Nazis to designate political prisoners
Isaac Stanley-Becker | June 18, 2020

...Facebook on Thursday deactivated dozens of ads placed by President Trump’s reelection campaign that included a symbol once used by the Nazis to designate political prisoners in concentration camps.

The marking appeared as part of the campaign’s online salvo against antifa and “far-left groups."

A red inverted triangle was used in the 1930s to identify Communists, and was applied as well to Social Democrats, liberals, Freemasons and other members of opposition parties incarcerated by the Nazis. ...

The red triangle appeared in paid posts sponsored by Trump and Vice President Pence, as well as by the “Team Trump” campaign page. It was featured alongside text warning of “Dangerous MOBS” and asking users to sign a petition about antifa, a loose collection of anti-fascist activists whom the Trump administration has sought to link to recent violence, despite arrest records that show their involvement is trivial.

Facebook removed the material following queries from The Washington Post, saying ads and organic posts with the inverted triangle violated its policy against organized hate...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/18/trump-campaign-runs-ads-with-...

30John5918
juny 18, 2020, 11:49pm

Hundreds of armed counter-protesters confront Black Lives Matter rally in Ohio (Guardian)

A small and peaceful demonstration in an Ohio town to support the Black Lives Matter movement at the weekend was overwhelmed when hundreds of counter-protesters – some armed with rifles or baseball bats – harassed the group...

31John5918
juny 22, 2020, 12:02am

Neo-Nazi militant group grooms teenagers (BBC)

Secret efforts to groom and recruit teenagers by a neo-Nazi militant group have been exposed by covert recordings... The FBI has described the group as seeking to unite white supremacists around the world and incite a race war...

32John5918
juny 24, 2020, 12:18am

Order of Nine Angles: What is this obscure Nazi Satanist group? (BBC)

A US soldier has been accused of plotting an attack on his own unit by sending information to an obscure Nazi Satanist organisation called the Order of Nine Angles (ONA). But who are they?

Founded in the UK in the 1970s, the ONA is an increasing focus for law enforcement and has appeared as an influence in several recent UK terrorism prosecutions relating to the extreme right-wing. The group lionises the Nazi era and dates its calendar from the birth of Adolf Hitler, but its supernatural belief system goes beyond anything normally associated with right-wing extremism. Its short-term goal is to undermine what it caricatures as a decadent Judeo-Christian society, with an emphasis placed on real-world acts, the aim being a new imperial civilization based a cruel mixture of Social Darwinism, Satanism, and Fascism. Adherents are encouraged to secretly infiltrate organisations such as the military or Christian churches in order to destabilise them from within...

The ONA has acted as an influence on several neo-Nazi extremist groups, including the US-based Atomwaffen Division - linked to five murders - and the Sonnenkrieg Division, which was banned as a terrorist organisation in the UK earlier this year...

The Sonnenkrieg Division, with its glorification of sexual violence, highlights another disturbing theme relating to the ONA - sexual offending as a way of undermining social norms. The US soldier charged in the terrorism case is alleged to have been part of an online movement whose channels constantly encourage the rape of women and children. The authorities are concerned by the number of paedophiles associated with the ONA, taking the group into a different area of law enforcement activity.

33John5918
juny 28, 2020, 12:18am

Violence by far-right is among US’s most dangerous terrorist threats, study finds (Guardian)

Violence by far-right groups and individuals has emerged as one of the most dangerous terrorist threats faced by US law enforcement and triggered a wave of warnings and arrests of people associated with those extremist movements.

The most recent in-depth analysis of far-right terrorism comes from the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).

In a report released last week, the Escalating Terrorism Problem in the United States, CSIS analyzes 25 years of domestic terrorism incidents and finds that the majority of attacks and plots have come from the far right.

The report says “the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994, and the total number of rightwing attacks and plots has grown significantly during the past six years”, with the far right launching two-thirds of attacks and plots in 2019, and 90% of those in 2020.

The report adds: “Far-right terrorism has significantly outpaced terrorism from other types of perpetrators.” The second most significant source of attacks and plots in the US has been “religious extremists”, almost all “Salafi jihadists inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaida”.

The report shows the far left has been an increasingly negligible source of attacks since the mid 2000s...

34John5918
jul. 1, 2020, 12:20am

Germany far right: Elite KSK commando force 'to be partially disbanded' (BBC)

Germany's defence minister says she has ordered the partial dissolution of the elite KSK commando force, which has come under growing criticism over right-wing extremism in its ranks. Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer told a newspaper it had become partly independent of the chain of command.

In May, police seized explosives and weapons at the home of a KSK soldier... KSK (Special Forces Command) was seen as a particular problem, with 20 members of the elite force suspected of right-wing extremism. The KSK had "become partially independent" from the chain of command, with a "toxic leadership culture"...

35margd
jul. 1, 2020, 4:58pm

Canadian Authorities Charge Teenager With Terrorism Over Incel-Based Violence
Preston Lim | June 30, 2020

On May 19, Canadian authorities charged a 17-year-old teenager with terrorist activity in what could prove to be a landmark case. On Feb. 24, the Toronto police responded to a call regarding a stabbing. Police officers arrived at the Crown Spa, an erotic massage parlor, to find a man and a woman outside the premises “suffering from multiple stab wounds” and a dead woman “inside the business premises.” That same day, authorities arrested a 17-year-old man, who cannot be named under the Youth Criminal Justice Act. The accused was initially charged with first-degree murder and attempted murder.

However, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP)—Canada’s federal police service—issued a press release on May 19 announcing that “federal and provincial Attorney Generals have consented to commence terrorism proceedings” under the Criminal Code. The RCMP, in conjunction with a number of other agencies, determined that the crime “was … one in which the accused was inspired by the Ideologically Motivated Violent Extremist (IMVE) movement commonly known as INCEL (involuntarily celibate).” This is only the second time in Canada that terrorist activity charges have been brought for activities not connected to al-Qaeda or inspired by the Islamic State.

...The decision to treat the Crown Spa murder as terrorist activity has already led to concrete changes in the national security sphere. The Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)—Canada’s national intelligence service—has signaled that it will change the way in which it talks about extremist threats. In a public report released on May 20, CSIS argued that “the terminology used when discussing threats to our national security is important,” as it helps “ensure that language used does not unintentionally or unfairly stigmatize any given community.” Instead of using labels such as “right wing” and “left wing,” CSIS now breaks down ideologically motivated violent extremism into four categories: xenophobic violence, gender-driven violence, anti-authority violence, and other grievance-driven and ideologically motivated violence.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/canadian-authorities-charge-teenager-terrorism-over-...

36John5918
jul. 7, 2020, 12:09am

Armed militias flock to Gettysburg to foil 'flag-burning protest' that was all a hoax (Guardian)

Armed rightwing militia groups descended on Gettysburg, Pennsylvania over the weekend, in a bid to protect the historic town from a flag-burning protest that never occurred and was in all likelihood a fake event advertised on social media...

38John5918
jul. 7, 2020, 8:24am

>37 Cubby.R.S.: the calculated overthrow of some existing political order, using as much force and terror as are deemed necessary

Worth remembering that last year the Sudanese people managed to overthrow the "existing political order", which consisited of a brutal Islamist military dictatorship with the full force of the state security apparatus including armed militia at its disposal, using no force or terror whatsoever, in a completely nonviolent revolution in which the protesters did not become violent even in the face of provocation which included the murder, torture and rape of peaceful demonstrators. They certainly didn't turn up with firearms (or indeed any other weapons) as the rightwing US militia described in >36 John5918: did.

39Cubby.R.S.
jul. 7, 2020, 9:46am

>38 John5918:

I'm unfamiliar with the story you mention. But, the caveats are within the link provided >37 Cubby.R.S.:.

41Cubby.R.S.
jul. 7, 2020, 11:26am

>38 John5918:

It appears that Wikipedia states there was some early destruction:

"The 2018–2019 wave of protests began on 19 December 2018 in response to the tripling of the price of bread in Atbara, then quickly spread to Port Sudan, Dongola and the capital Khartoum. Protestors set fire to the national party headquarters in Atbara and Dongola.78 Authorities used tear gas, rubber bullets and live ammunition to disperse demonstrators, causing dozens of deaths and injuries"

"By 7 January 2019 over 800 anti-government protesters were arrested and 19 people, including security officials, were killed during the protests"

"the Sudanese Professionals Association called for a march to the headquarters of the armed forces. Hundreds of thousands of people answered the call. According to one protester, divisions appeared between the security forces, who "tried to attack the demonstrators coming from the north", and the military, who "took the demonstrators' side and fired back.""

I won't continue, but I'm not so sure that it wasn't by shear number that the revolution succeeded and the non-violence you're speaking of wasn't simply a result of being a consensus opinion.

42Cubby.R.S.
jul. 7, 2020, 11:28am

>40 kiparsky:

Well, to be fair, I had knowledge of it, but did not have solid detail.

43John5918
Editat: jul. 8, 2020, 4:20am

I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to explain the complexities of Sudan to someone who is trying to prove me wrong by quoting Wikipedia, but the fact that there were two isolated incidents against property belonging to the oppressive Islamist military regime in the very early stages of the protests before the protesters began to organise themselves, led largely by women and youth, does not negate the fact that this revolution was (and was viewed globally as) a nonviolent one. Millions took part in it, and only a very small handful resorted to any sort of violence against property, and generally not against people. The reason it succeeded was, in large part, because it was nonviolent. If the protesters had responded to state violence with more violence it would have faded into being just another violent uprising somewhere that much of the world had never heard of. It would not have got the global visibility and support which it did, and the subsequent new political dispensation would not have had the same credibility and legitimacy.

As I usually do in these sort of conversations, let me refer again to Why Civil Resistance Works by Erica Chenoweth and Maria J Stephan, an academic evidence-based study which shows that nonviolent struggles have been twice as successful as violent ones, and that the post-struggle society is more likely to value justice, peace, democracy and human rights after a nonviolent struggle than a violent one.

44Cubby.R.S.
jul. 8, 2020, 7:42am

>43 John5918:

Okay. I was just pointing out that it seemed shear number that made the revolution a success, but that there was indeed a bit of early violence. Perhaps the rapid growth made it possible for them to find violence unnecessary. I'm not trying to prove you wrong.

45John5918
Editat: jul. 8, 2020, 7:59am

>44 Cubby.R.S.:

Thank you. But you're right that "sheer numbers" plays an important role in the success of a nonviolent struggle. In a violent struggle where the ability and willingness to bear arms and to cause death and destruction (even in a "good cause") are important criteria, it is mainly men within a certain age range who are eligible to play the major role, and that limits the number of potential recruits. In a nonviolent strggle the entire population can play an active role, from the very young to the very elderly, and of course including women - as I mentioned, women played an inspirational leadership role in the Sudan revolution, even more remarkable because it is such a patricarchal society. The weight of numbers is important.

Reminds me for some reason of an Irish rebel song, The lid of me granny's bin (referring to the lid of a metal dustbin, or trash can on your side of the Pond, which the women would beat to alert people to the presence of British soldiers, and simply as a sign of protest and solidarity). Northern Ireland of course was not a nonviolent struggle, but banging pots and pans, blowing whistles and other ways of making a racket is a recognised tactic of nonviolent protests.

462wonderY
jul. 8, 2020, 12:19pm

>45 John5918:
"but banging pots and pans, blowing whistles and other ways of making a racket is a recognised tactic of nonviolent protests."

Hmmm. I didn't know that. Good to find that out.

47Cubby.R.S.
jul. 9, 2020, 1:41pm

Since I like to offer my favorite Liberals some reading material for their enrichment, what I consider a wholly fair piece and giving you too much credit:

https://lawliberty.org/ancient-liberty-modern-divisions/

48John5918
jul. 10, 2020, 1:14am

Met police officer charged with belonging to far-right terror group (Guardian)

A serving probationary Metropolitan police officer has been charged with being a member of far-right terrorist group National Action. Benjamin Hannam, 21, of north London, has been charged with five offences following an investigation by the Met’s counter-terrorism command and has been suspended from duty, Scotland Yard said...

49margd
set. 8, 2020, 3:48am

DHS draft document: White supremacists are greatest terror threat
BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN | 09/04/2020

The documents are slightly different drafts of the same annual threat assessment, which is not yet published.

...“Foreign terrorist organizations will continue to call for Homeland attacks but probably will remain constrained in their ability to direct such plots over the next year,” all three documents say.

Russia “probably will be the primary covert foreign influence actor and purveyor of disinformation and misinformation in the Homeland,” the documents also say.

...None of the drafts POLITICO reviewed referred to a threat from Antifa, the loose cohort of militant left-leaning agitators who senior Trump administration officials have described as domestic terrorists. Two of the drafts refer to extremists trying to exploit the “social grievances” driving lawful protests.

...The earliest draft has the strongest language on the threat from white supremacists, in an introductory section labeled “Key Takeaways.”

“Lone offenders and small cells of individuals motivated by a diverse array of social, ideological, and personal factors will pose the primary terrorist threat to the United States,” the draft reads. “Among these groups, we assess that white supremacist extremists – who increasingly are networking with likeminded persons abroad – will pose the most persistent and lethal threat.”

The “Key Takeaways” section of the next two drafts calls “Domestic Violent Extremists” the “most persistent and lethal threat,” rather than specifically naming white supremacists.

...“Violent extremists almost certainly will continue their efforts to exploit public fears associated with COVID-19 and social grievances driving lawful protests to incite violence, intimidate targets, and promote their violent extremist ideologies,” the second and third drafts reviewed by POLITICO say. “Simple tactics – such as vehicle ramming, small arms, edged weapons, arson, and rudimentary improvised explosive devices – probably will be most common.”

All three documents note that 2019 was the most deadly year for domestic violent extremists since the Oklahoma City Bombing in 1995.

“Among DVE domestic violent extremist actors, WSEs white supremacist extremists conducted half of all lethal attacks (8 of 16), resulting in the majority of deaths (39 of 48),” the drafts read.

...“I have no qualms criticizing the white supremacy threat,” said Ken Cuccinelli, DHS’s second-in-command, in a recent interview on MSNBC. “Neither does the secretary, neither does the Department of Homeland Security. We recognize when those people act out violently, that they show the highest level of lethality, meaning if you compare the number of violent incidents to the numbers of deaths, the numbers of deaths relative to the incidents is very high compared to other types of threats."

DHS leaders have been much more vocal of late in highlighting federal efforts to target Antifa...

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/04/white-supremacists-terror-threat-dhs-40...

50margd
set. 11, 2020, 7:38am

Once organized against over-reach by government,
loosely affiliated armed people now see left-leaning fellow Americans who oppose Trump as the threat.

How Trump And COVID-19 Have Reshaped The Modern Militia Movement
Researchers warn there may be more violence.
Amelia Thomson-DeVeaux and Maggie Koerth | Sep. 4, 2020

...the militia movement...an umbrella term that encompasses paramilitary activists and groups with strong anti-government leanings....

While established militias are kind of like a heavily armed scout troop — formal organizations with ranks and membership dues and training programs and regular meetings — some academics argue that many people who are falling into the militia movement’s orbit these days are more like loosely affiliated individuals.

...a crowd like the one that showed up in Kenosha can be made up of individuals, even strangers, with little connecting them except a shared interest in gun rights and a sense that they’re the only ones who can protect their community. And in these trying times — amid a pandemic and protests against racial injustice, plus a president who is giving them more public support than they’ve ever had from the national political establishment — those individuals are taking a collective turn in a direction that, experts fear, is likely to result in more violence.

...Fear and anxiety are predictors of people — particularly young people — turning towards extremism and violence, said (Cynthia Miller-Idriss, a sociologist at American University, where she runs the Polarization and Extremism Research and Innovation Lab). In that context, the conditions of the pandemic are a perfect culture for radicalism to grow. “We know from the research that unemployment itself does not lead to greater risk of engaging in extremist behaviors but economic precarity* does,” she said. For the last six months, the entire country has lived on the edge of economic and social precarity. What if our institutions crumble? What if we can’t get our normal lives back? Extremist ideologies can offer meaning, purpose and a narrative of control when everything feels out of it.

The president’s rhetoric has fed into that...With Trump saying both implicitly and explicitly that militias or even just armed individuals are the only thing standing between America and the chaos of a leftist takeover of the country, the promise of control becomes even stronger. It becomes a call to arms — one that more young Americans, sitting at home without school or even work, may try to answer.

But if the head of the government isn’t the threat, who is? The answer, said Sam Jackson, a professor at the University of Albany and the author of a new book on one of the country’s most prominent modern militia groups, has turned out to be other Americans — specifically, left-leaning ones who oppose Trump.

...Given the way things are changing, the people who study the militia movement and have spent years talking to its members think there’s a risk of American militias becoming more like the militias of other, often politically unstable, countries. “What matters is if the movement becomes essentially a more traditional Latin American pro-regime paramilitary, which seems to be what Trump is trying to create or wants,” (Robert Churchill, a history professor at the University of Hartford who extensively researched the militia movement of the 1990s) said.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-trump-and-covid-19-have-reshaped-the-mo...

* Precarity is a precarious existence, lacking in predictability, job security, material or psychological welfare. The social class defined by this condition has been termed the precariat. (Wikipedia)

51John5918
set. 17, 2020, 2:31am

Armed civilian roadblocks in Oregon town fuel fears over vigilantism (Guardian)

Civilian residents, some heavily armed, set up at least two roadblocks with cars and household chairs, according to residents and recordings obtained by the Guardian. Drivers who were stopped said they were asked to identify themselves and their connection to the town and claimed that on at least two occasions, police were on the scene and did not intervene in the illegal traffic stops...

52margd
set. 17, 2020, 9:22am

Accused Killer Of California Cops Was Associated With Right-Wing 'Boogaloo Movement'
Tommy Beer | June 16, 2020

The FBI announced Tuesday that Steven Carrillo, the U.S. Air Force sergeant who allegedly murdered law enforcement officers in California during protests earlier this month, was associated with the right-wing Boogaloo movement, and that Carrillo chose the timing of his attacks to "take advantage of a time when this nation was mourning the killing of George Floyd."

...On Tuesday, the FBI announced Tuesday that Carrillo has also been federally charged with the murder of federal security officer Pat Underwood, who was killed in a drive-by shooting on May 29 in Oakland.

A suspected accomplice, Robert Alvin Justus Jr., has been arrested as well.

Justus was allegedly the driver of the van used in both the Oakland Federal Building shooting and the Santa Cruz attack.

Before he was apprehended, Carrillo reportedly scrawled the word "boog" and "I became unreasonable" in blood on the hood of a car...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/16/accused-killer-of-california-c...

53kiparsky
set. 17, 2020, 9:56am

>51 John5918:

The militia scenario is even more dangerous than it appears. The areas in question are likely to be subject to evacuation at any time. Evacuation procedures typically involve a house-to-house in-person notification process, literally knocking on every door and talking to every household to determine whether the household will be able to evacuate on their own, or will need assistance, or will refuse to evacuate (this is America, some people always choose to die in their houses, I can't say why)
This house-to-house notification is often done by volunteers from area search-and-rescue teams - but no S&R team is likely to send in volunteers when there are armed militias active in the area. This means that the notification must be done by armed police or fire personnel, who are already stretched way too thin in the West due to the fires, and so the response coordinators have to choose where to allocate those hours of work, either pulling them away from much needed duties or failing to to evacuation notification.

In other words, even if these militias never fire a shot, when all this is done they will likely have caused some death or property damage that could have been prevented - and the victims will be their friends and neighbors.

54margd
oct. 1, 2020, 8:22am

Stand down & stand by was more of the same. Criminal.

Internal document shows Trump officials were told to make comments sympathetic to Kyle Rittenhouse
Julia Ainsley | Oct. 1, 2020

WASHINGTON — Federal law enforcement officials were directed to make public comments sympathetic to Kyle Rittenhouse, the teenager charged with fatally shooting two protesters in Kenosha, Wisconsin, according to internal Department of Homeland Security talking points obtained by NBC News.

In preparing Homeland Security officials for questions about Rittenhouse from the media, the document suggests that they note that he "took his rifle to the scene of the rioting to help defend small business owners."

Another set of talking points distributed to Homeland Security officials said the media were incorrectly labeling the group Patriot Prayer as racists after clashes erupted between the group and protesters in Portland, Oregon.

It is unclear whether any of the talking points originated at the White House or within Homeland Security's own press office...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/internal-document-shows-trump...

55Doug1943
oct. 1, 2020, 9:57am

I've been making a (slow) systematic survey of organized militia groups in the US. What I'm looking for specifically are groups that could be legitimately characterized as 'far right'/'white supremacist'/neo-Nazi. I would take the prominent display of the Confederate Flag as an indicator of this, although not definitive proof.

If someone knows of such groups -- or rather, has links to their websites, I would be grateful if you could send the links to me.

So far, I have found only one group that could be characterized as in the 'non-whites not welcome' camp -- one in New Mexico, which I am not sure is still active.
(I'm talking about groups which claim as their primary identity, being a militia -- not fascist groups which also parade around with guns).

56mamzel
oct. 1, 2020, 3:09pm

Did you look up Proud Boys, as mentioned by his orangeness? I would send you a link but I don't want to sully my browser history.

57kiparsky
oct. 1, 2020, 3:15pm

>55 Doug1943: The SPLC compiles an annual survey of hate groups in the US, there might be some useful data there for you:

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

58Earthling1
oct. 1, 2020, 3:26pm

>55 Doug1943: Facts? How dare you. I doubt anyone here is interested in facts.

59kiparsky
oct. 1, 2020, 3:42pm

>58 Earthling1: If that's true, and you're here, then you're not interested in facts. (if you were, you would not be able to "doubt that anyone here is interested in facts", since you would know for sure that at least one person is)

And since you're the only one here whose interests you can speak authoritatively about, all we know from your statement is that you're not interested in facts.

Thank you for confirming that, I'll bear it in mind.

60Doug1943
oct. 1, 2020, 6:48pm

Kiparsky: thanks for the suggestion. I'm pretty familiar with the SPLC, which has to be included in any study of American 'extremist' groups, but which I believe has lost its credibility as an impartial arbiter of the political character of organizations its liberal staff do not like.

You might be interested in this article: https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/24/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-lost-...

If you go to the SPLC site and do a search on the Proud Boys, you'll come up with lots of information showing that those guys like a fight. From my point of view, they are unnecesssarily provocative in their tactics. And they're probably not the sort of people I would invite to a dinner party.

But I couldn't find one thing that indicated that they were white supremacists.

I've asked for evidence that they are white supremacists on other liberal sides, like the 'Progressive Secular Humanists'. And whan I get is shrieks and moans and people putting me on their 'black list' (isn't that racist?) ... but no evidence.

Maybe there is some, and if so, I'd like to see it.

As for 'facts' and people's being interested in them: the reality is that we all -- we who have strong political beliefs -- are very interested in those facts which confirm our belliefs. As for those facts which apparently do NOT confirm our beliefs, but challenge them ... not so much. I think both Left and Right are identical in this respect.

People reading this thread are probably familiar with the late Karl Popper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper. Most of his ideas are above my pay grade, but the one thing that really impressed me was that we should always ask, about anything we believe, "What evidence would make me change my mind?"

Now in practice, most of our beliefs are about very complicated things, so that for some of them, it's hard to imagine such a test: I couldn't formulate such a test for, say, the claim that organisms evolve over time. But I think it's a good idea in principle.

Anyway, I think it's useful, if you have strong political beliefs, to keep seeing them challenged by intelligent people on the other side.

Which is why I would like some kindly leftist to show me the evidence that the Proud Boys are white supremacists.

61Doug1943
oct. 1, 2020, 6:52pm

>56 mamzel: A suggestion: download a minor league browser like Safari, and find that link using it. You'll earn some good karma! (And anyway, searching for information on white supremacists surely isn't sullying your browser history. You're doing it as part of the Just Struggle of the World's Oppressed People Against Racism and Imperialism!)

More generally, you and many others believe they're white supremacists, no? If so, you must have some reason for doing so. So ... just show me the reason.

62John5918
Editat: oct. 2, 2020, 1:55am

>60 Doug1943: Anyway, I think it's useful, if you have strong political beliefs, to keep seeing them challenged by intelligent people on the other side.

Thanks for that, Doug. It's one of the reasons I still persevere on this often toxic Pro and Con group. I'm happy to see my political (and other) beliefs challenged, and I give everybody the benefit of the doubt by assuming they are "intelligent people", although the level of discussion here often militates against that assumption. My political views have certainly developed as a result of these challenges, although it has been a strengthening and focusing of my basic position rather than any change in an opposite direction.

63mamzel
oct. 2, 2020, 2:03pm

>61 Doug1943: Thanks for the suggestion.

I have watched way too much TV where the authorities break down the door and grab the computer and search the browser history to see what the user was interested in. The history shows no reason for why the user went to the sites, just that they did.

Not that I expect a no-knock at my residence, of course.

In any case, I am in the land of extreme heat and air unfit to breathe so I look for lighter fare than white supremacists to spend my time with.

64margd
oct. 8, 2020, 12:49pm

Feds say they thwarted militia plot to kidnap Whitmer
Robert Snell | Oct 8, 2020
The Detroit News

The FBI says it thwarted what it described as a plot to violently overthrow the government and kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, and federal prosecutors are expected to discuss the alleged conspiracy later Thursday.

The alleged plot involved reaching out to members of a Michigan militia, according to a federal affidavit filed Thursday.

►Read the filing: FBI affidavit: Conspirators wanted to kidnap gov to remote Wisconsin location
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/10/08/fbi-affidavit-c...

The court filing also alleges the conspirators twice conducted surveillance at Whitmer's vacation home and discussed kidnapping her to a remote location in Wisconsin to stand "trial" for treason prior to the Nov. 3 election.

"Several members talked about murdering 'tyrants' or 'taking' a sitting governor," an FBI agent wrote in the affidavit. "The group decided they needed to increase their numbers and encouraged each other to talk to their neighbors and spread their message."...

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/10/08/feds-thwart-mil...

65LolaWalser
oct. 8, 2020, 5:22pm

>64 margd:

I'm amazed that's drawing no discussion.

13 men charged in alleged plot to kidnap Michigan governor

...Six men were charged in federal court with conspiring to kidnap the governor in reaction to what they viewed as her "uncontrolled power," according to a federal complaint.


I have to ask, is there something special about governorship in Michigan? I.e. something that would make a governor of that state in particular seem as having "uncontrolled power"?

The six men charged federally plotted for months, consulting and training with militia members, and undertaking rehearsals in August and September, according to the complaint.


Gee, where have I heard people boast about hanging out with militia types recently...

66lriley
oct. 8, 2020, 5:44pm

#64--These are the people that Trump and certain knuckleheads in this group defend. To me it was a dangerous precedent allowing armed militia and other members of the public into the statehouse several months ago. They should have been arrested and their arms confiscated and destroyed.

The Trump administration has given them encouragement and these are the kinds of projects they come up with. They want to turn the country upside down and Trump continuously calls positive messages out to them.

67librorumamans
oct. 8, 2020, 6:39pm

>66 lriley:

Let's hope that this scares the shit out of any undecided sane voters, if there are any voters that meet both those criteria in swing states.

68librorumamans
oct. 8, 2020, 6:45pm

Interesting coincidence that this happens fifty years to the week after the kidnappings of James Cross and Pierre Laporte.

69lriley
Editat: oct. 8, 2020, 6:46pm

#68--these right wing militias are the people who are really out to do violence.

70margd
Editat: oct. 8, 2020, 8:50pm

Gov Whitmer was acting on COVID under emergency powers legislation. She extended orders several times which did close some businesses, but saved many lives. Ours is a peculiar state that once had great moderate R governors such as Milliken and Romney, but more recently known for righties such as Ted Nugent, Betsy DeVos, Wayne LaPierre, Gov Engler (then US Chamber of Congress), buddy of Oklahoma bomber etc. Rs control Legislature through gerrymandering--not popular vote--and as in Wisconsin have used their power to constrain D Gov from day one. Just won a MI Supreme Court decision (partisan) against her use of emergency powers. Add on top of that Trump urging armed impressionable goons to "Liberate Michigan"... Grrr. R friends have started voting D. Hope many more decent Rs will follow!

71margd
oct. 8, 2020, 9:33pm

Recent referendum established nonpartisan commission to redraw Michigan districts so at least they should be more representative. Term limits were a mistake too I think in that lobbyists and future employers increased influence.

72Limelite
oct. 8, 2020, 10:31pm

Holy Sh*t! Is This Domestic Terrorism?

VIDEO: Trump Supporting Evangelical Leaders at "Work"

73margd
oct. 9, 2020, 5:50am

The Plot Against Gretchen Whitmer Shows the Danger of Private Militias
These groups have no constitutional right to exist.
Mary B. McCord* | Oct. 8, 2020

...All these (well-regulated militia) laws point to a single conclusion: There is no right in any state for groups of individuals to arm themselves and organize either to oppose or augment the government.

Now, more than ever, state and local officials must enforce these statutes. In battleground states like Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin, as well as other hotbeds of militia activity like Oregon, Idaho, Virginia and Texas, they must ready themselves for unlawful private militias showing up at the polls and on the streets during ballot counting and beyond.

Those groups, like the Three Percenters, Oath Keepers and others that claim to be “patriots” but answer to their own interpretation of the Constitution, are likely to hear the president’s unsupported claims about election fraud as their license to deploy to the polls to “protect” or “patrol” the vote.

Their armed presence not only would violate state anti-paramilitary laws, it would likely violate laws against voter intimidation as well. State attorneys general, secretaries of state, local prosecutors, law enforcement officers and election workers must know about these laws and be prepared to enforce them. They should announce this in advance and consider taking pre-emptive action through attorney general legal opinions, cease and desist orders, and prosecutions or civil litigation.

These efforts must continue after the election, when the threat of civil unrest could be at its greatest. State and local leaders, in both parties, must denounce armed militia activity, whether from the right or the left.

These leaders may also have to take swift action to protect public safety and preserve constitutional rights. But the law is on their side — private armed militias find no support in the U.S. or state constitutions or in American history. They must not be tolerated in our society.

* Mary B. McCord, legal director for Georgetown Law’s Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection and a visiting professor, was the acting assistant attorney general for national security at the Department of Justice from 2016 to 2017.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/08/opinion/militias-gretchen-whitmer.html

74margd
oct. 9, 2020, 11:41am

Malachi Barrett @PolarBarrett | 9:25 PM · Oct 8, 2020
Looks like William Null, one of the men arrested for allegedly planning to kidnap Gov. Whitmer, was on stage at an anti-lockdown rally last May in Grand Rapids. Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey also spoke at the event.
https://mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2020/05/michigan-sheriff-says-gov-whitmers-s...
Image ( https://twitter.com/PolarBarrett/status/1314376526331346945/photo/1 )
Image ( https://twitter.com/PolarBarrett/status/1314376526331346945/photo/2 )

--------------------------------------------------​

Men charged in plot to kidnap Gov. Whitmer spotted in photo at (April) Capitol gun rally
Darcie Moran | Oct 8, 2020

... https://twitter.com/SenPolehanki/status/1255899318210314241 ...

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/10/08/whitmer-kidnap-plot-c...

--------------------------------------------------​

Donald Trump:
LIBERATE MICHIGAN!
"that woman from Michigan"
"very good people"
etc.

After foiled kidnapping plot, Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer says threats against her are 'ongoing'
"Even the president last night in his tweet storm won't stop attacking me."
Morgan Winsor | October 9, 2020
https://abcnews.go.com/US/foiled-kidnapping-plot-michigan-gov-gretchen-whitmer-t...

75margd
oct. 9, 2020, 2:59pm

Ross Jones @rossjonesWXYZ | 11:01 AM · Oct 9, 2020
This interview with a sitting sheriff in Michigan is absolutely wild.

2:14 ( https://twitter.com/rossjonesWXYZ/status/1314581815815004160 )
From Aaron FOX 17

76lriley
oct. 9, 2020, 8:48pm

That sheriff is nuts. 'Innocent until proven guilty' and then says he doesn't know whether they were trying to kidnap Whitman...or arrest her? I mean WTF! He's the sheriff and he thinks militia people can go around arresting the Michigan governor? Quite obvious why he was left out of the loop.

77margd
oct. 10, 2020, 7:36am

As of Friday, Michigan residents were testing positive for coronavirus at about a 3 percent rate,
one of the lowest in the nation, according to a rolling count kept by Johns Hopkins University*
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gretchen-whitmer-back-campaign-trail-after-...

* https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/testing-positivity

78margd
oct. 11, 2020, 5:03am

Good to see Michigan's (R) Speaker of the House extend olive branch to (D) Governor. One wonders, though, if having fostered the war-like atmosphere, Michigan Rs are finally ready to be responsible partners for good government. Gov Whitmer won office in part because of her ability to work with Rs in the State Legislature and she's been remarkably tolerant until now in her public responses to state Rs and President Trump. One can hardly blame her for finally speaking out. In general, Michiganders' support of her handling of pandemic and in face of kidnapping threat seems only stronger.

Michigan Speaker of the House writes letter to Governor Whitmer regarding kidnapping plot
Jake Vigna | Oct. 10, 2020

"Governor Whitmer,

We need to cooperate more...
Why weren’t we in the Legislature warned of the plot to take hostages at the Capitol?
I am also alarmed the Lieutenant Governor recently blamed Michigan Republicans for the evil plans of these unstable men.
But you should also know that others in the Legislature have been threatened, too.

Now, I’ve been critical of many of your decisions this year during COVID-19. I’ll admit that. I’ve agreed with some decisions, too. It’s important we have these debates. It makes us stronger. It ensures all voices in our state are heard. It’s how our process was designed to work. But we need to do it the right way. Blanket, partisan blame is wrong. It simply further divides us and causes more political strife.

...I agree, it’s time to tone down the partisan rhetoric and turn “the heat down” as you’ve said. Will you do the same for President Trump?
Will the Lieutenant Governor turn it down with the entire Republican Party, millions of whom are his constituents?

Please know that I am praying for the good health and constant safety of you and your family. I hope you are of mine too. And I hope you will truly and finally allow us to work together to protect the lives and livelihoods of everyone who calls Michigan home. I’m ready. I hope you are, too."

(Michigan Speaker of the House Lee Chatfield, R)

https://www.wilx.com/2020/10/10/michigan-speaker-of-the-house-writes-letter-to-g...

79lriley
oct. 11, 2020, 5:40am

#78--regarding the letter--Whitmer should use here authority to do what she can to stop the spread. It shouldn't be necessary for instance to go to the legislature and have a vote over whether to shut down churches, gyms, bars or restaurants or not when they are a health hazard. If they want o work together she can give them a heads up but if working together just comes down to obstructing her all the time that's not good enough.

80John5918
oct. 15, 2020, 12:02am

US militias forge alliances with conspiracy theorists ahead of election (Guardian)

Armed militia groups are forging alliances in the final stages of the US presidential election with conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers who claim the coronavirus pandemic is a hoax, intensifying concerns that trouble could be brewing ahead of election day.

Leading advocates of anti-government and anti-science propaganda came together at the weekend, joined by the founder of one of the largest militia groups. The rare connection occurred at the Red Pill Expo, a conference convened on Jekyll Island, Georgia – a symbolic location as it is the birthplace of the US Federal Reserve, a popular bogey figure for conspiracy theorists.

The summit, staged indoors in front of a packed and maskless audience of about 350, was headlined by Stewart Rhodes, president of the Oath Keepers. The militia, which turned up menacingly at several Black Lives Matter (BLM) protests over the summer and has acted as a vigilante squad at numerous Donald Trump campaign rallies, has links to 25,000 current or past members, mostly military or police veterans.

Rhodes aroused the crowd of “Red Pillers”, as they called themselves, with incendiary language. He denounced BLM as a “communist front” and encouraged attendees to seek training in firearms and militia activity as the election approaches.

“You are your own self-defense,” he said. “You must organize yourselves in the next 30 days in your towns and counties. We have members in every state in the union and we are standing them up right now.”

Rhodes said the turbulence around “radical left” protests had brought “a flood of special warfare operatives into the Oath Keepers”. He cited former navy Seals and special force personnel from Fort Bragg, the US army garrison in North Carolina.

A number of groups monitoring far rightwing paramilitary activity have warned in recent weeks that militia groups and individuals online are increasingly focusing their attentions on the presidential election. The chatter has been fueled by Trump’s provocative remarks casting doubt on the integrity of the voting process and calling on his supporters to turn up at polling places on election day.

Anxiety is also growing around the activities of white supremacist domestic terrorist groups, which federal agencies now recognize as an especially dangerous threat. Last week six people were charged in a plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer...

81margd
Editat: oct. 16, 2020, 7:54am

Conditional, toxic masculinity
trained in our endless wars
returning to a society with no meaningful roles for them
easy access to weapons
egged on by a power-hungry, narcissistic sociopath...

Robert Preston (The Music Man) "Ya Got Trouble" (4:30)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTXEJizAneY

82margd
oct. 16, 2020, 12:43pm

Sure hope gun-toting Repugs and Trumpians don't see this as opportunity to create incidents that interfere with voting in largely D areas...

Michigan bans open carry of guns inside and near polling places
Craig Mauger | 10/16/2020

...Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson sent guidance to local election officials on Friday — 18 days before Election Day — to clarify that the open carry of firearms on Election Day (within 100 feet of) polling places, (in) clerk’s offices and absent voter counting boards is banned.

"The presence of firearms at the polling place, clerk’s office(s), or absent voter counting board may cause disruption, fear or intimidation for voters, election workers and others present...Absent clear standards, there is potential for confusion and uneven application of legal requirements for Michigan’s 1,600 election officials, 30,000 election inspectors, 8 million registered voters and thousands of challengers and poll watchers on Election Day"

Benson is working with Attorney General Dana Nessel and Michigan State Police Director Col. Joe Gasper to ensure "Michigan voters are safe and secure when voting by informing local law enforcement agencies and ensuring that the ban on openly carried firearms is enforced statewide...Fair, free and secure elections are the foundation of our democracy...I am committed to ensuring all eligible Michigan citizens can freely exercise their fundamental right to vote without fear of threats, intimidation or harassment...Prohibiting the open-carry of firearms in areas where citizens cast their ballots is necessary to ensure every voter is protected...if any person is acting in a way that would tend to intimidate, hinder or impede voters on the way to the polls," election inspectors should contact law enforcement.

The open carry of guns will be prohibited inside the state's polling places, in any hallways voters use to enter or exit them and "within 100 feet of any entrance to a building in which a polling place is located."

Voters may leave firearms inside their vehicles if they are parked within 100 feet of the buildings "if otherwise permitted by law to possess the firearm within the vehicle," the guidance says.

Concealed carry will be prohibited in any building that already prohibits it "unless an individual is authorized by the building," according to the guidance.

..."Election inspectors should contact law enforcement immediately if these prohibitions are violated," the guidance says. "The prohibition on open carry does not apply to law enforcement officers acting in the course of their duties."

...During the Sept. 29 debate in Cleveland, Trump urged his supporters "to go into the polls and watch very carefully because that's what has to happen."

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/10/16/michigan-bans-open-ca...

83margd
oct. 18, 2020, 7:52am

The threats against Democratic governors prove Trump’s rhetoric encourages violence
Elizabeth Neumann | Oct. 16, 2020

...In March, while serving as assistant secretary of homeland security for counterterrorism and threat prevention, I asked my team to research how pandemic mitigation efforts might exacerbate violent extremism. For decades, the Secret Service, the FBI and academic researchers have examined the backgrounds and pre-attack behaviors of mass-attack perpetrators. Some of the risk factors of violent extremism they identified are increasing nationwide: social isolation, financial stress, job loss, loss of loved ones and significant changes or uncertainty in life.

A good leader can speak to the country — especially those most susceptible to radicalization — and contextualize the national and worldwide struggle against covid-19 in a way that unites people and discourages division, anger and grievance....

My team also found that some groups would perceive public health measures as government overreach infringing on rights and liberties, which might encourage anti-government extremists. And we observed foreign actors and domestic violent extremists spreading disinformation about the pandemic to foment discord and encourage violence.

These findings were included in the recently released 2020 Homeland Threat Assessment, which concluded: “Domestic Violent Extremists (present) the most persistent and lethal threat. … Violent extremists will continue to target individuals or institutions that represent symbols of their grievances, as well as grievances based on political affiliation or perceived policy positions. … The domestic situation surrounding the covid-19 pandemic creates an environment that could accelerate some individuals’ mobilization to targeted violence or radicalization to terrorism.”

This is what we see in the Michigan allegations...

...Language from campaign materials and Trump’s extemporaneous speeches at rallies have been used as justification for acts of violence...Extremists thrive on this mixed messaging, interpreting it as coded support.

Combined with the president’s repeated efforts to undermine the legitimacy of the election and militaristic calls to “join Army for Trump’s election security operation,” law enforcement and counterterrorism officials have expressed concerns to me that the president’s rhetoric will lead to more civil unrest and violence...

If anyone still questioned whether the president’s rhetoric encourages violence, the plot against Whitmer provided the answer...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/10/16/threats-against-democratic-go...

--------------------------------------------------​
* Radical American Partisanship
Mapping Violent Hostility, Its Causes, & What It Means for Democracy.
Nathan P. Kalmoe & Lilliana Mason

Status: manuscript under review, final data collection, contract offer (University of Chicago Press).

https://nathankalmoe.com/radical-american-partisanship/

84margd
oct. 18, 2020, 9:37am

>83 margd: contd.

Tori Saylor @tori_saylor | 6:18 PM · Oct 17, 2020:
I am the Governor's Deputy Digital Director. I see everything that is said about and to her online.
Every single time the President does this at a rally, the violent rhetoric towards her immediately escalates on social media.
It has to stop. It just has to.

Quote Tweet
Acyn Torabi @Acyn · 15h
The President mentions the Governor of Michigan, the crowd chants lock her up, and the President says lock them all up
0:39 ( https://twitter.com/tori_saylor/status/1317590813539471364 )

85jjwilson61
oct. 18, 2020, 11:53am

>84 margd: And Trump's daughter-in-law says it's all in good fun. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/18/lara-trump-attack-whitmer-430060

86margd
Editat: oct. 18, 2020, 1:14pm

Apr 17 2020--Donald Trump : "LIBERATE MICHIGAN"
Oct 8, 2020--Feds say they thwarted militia plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Whitmer

reminds me of a similar Canadian scenario, which ended in kidnapping/murder of Quebec Deputy Premier and kidnapping of British diplomat, 50 years ago this month...

July 24, 1967--President Charles de Gaulle of France: "Vive le Québec libre!"
October 1970--Members of the Front de libération du Québec (FLQ) kidnap the provincial Deputy Premier Pierre Laporte and British diplomat James Cross. They murdered Laporte. Negotiations led to Cross's release.

87librorumamans
oct. 18, 2020, 8:47pm

>86 margd:

I hadn't thought about the de Gaulle parallel; thanks!

88lriley
Editat: oct. 25, 2020, 8:31am

On the domestic terrorism front:

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/boogaloo-bois-minneapolis-precinct-antifa-1344076...

Or once again people on the far right including our shitbird president have been blaming the wrong people and should have been blaming people more of their own ilk. This Ivan Harrison Hunter arrested by the FBI for letting loose with a magazine full of high velocity bullets and who helped to start the fire that burned down the Minneapolis police station was not antifa--he was a boogaloo guy.

89lriley
oct. 25, 2020, 8:36am

Since we're on the domestic terrorism front--stories come out of Ohio that a small group intended to arrest Republican Governor Mike DeWine for being a tyrant and intending to give him justice appropriate for being a tyrant (whatever that is?--execution?)--their little operation has been exposed but so far no charges against anyone have been made. We don't have any names yet but I'm getting the picture that this is another bunch of right wing idiots with possible ties to militia organizations.

90John5918
oct. 25, 2020, 11:54am

Too Much to Lose: Steering the U.S. Away from Election-Related Violence (International Crisis Group)

Presidential elections in the United States are always rough-and-tumble affairs, but the 2020 election is different. While Americans have grown used to a certain level of rancour in these quadrennial campaigns, they have not in living memory faced the realistic prospect that the incumbent may reject the outcome or that armed violence may result.

That has changed in 2020 because of the emergence of risk factors that would spell trouble in any country: political polarisation bound up with issues of race and identity; the rise of armed groups with political agendas; the higher-than-usual chances of a contested outcome; and, in President Donald Trump, a leader who has too often courted conflict to advance his personal and political interests. The likelihood of unrest may ebb and flow as the dynamics of the campaign shift, but it is almost certain to remain, and it will increase if either side forms the impression that the vote has been rigged...

91lriley
Editat: oct. 25, 2020, 12:50pm

#90--there is going to be a lot of anger, rancor and aggrievement after this election no matter what. It's past the point where that can be avoided. I think if the pandemic digs in a lot deeper it might quiet it a bit---that's not really much of a silver lining though. To me it speaks to the extremism of what has become republican politics and the inadequacies from the democratic side neither of which are willing to critique their own with any real honesty. I know those on the democratic side still do not want to hear about the failures of their neo-liberal project anymore than the republican side want to hear that their pro-police b.s. is racist and they're following this orange headed lunkhead down the road to fascism.

92margd
oct. 26, 2020, 11:18am

Elissa Slotkin Wants to Know Who’ll Stand Up to Trump If He Loses
TIM ALBERTA | 10/26/2020

The embattled freshman Democrat is focusing on protecting voters on Election Day and preventing interference with the results.

...(Elissa) Slotkin: ...people have been asking R clerk questions like, ‘What do we do if someone shows up carrying an AK-47 into the polls? Who do we call? Some of the law local law enforcement have already said they won’t enforce it. What do we do?’ And she came out very strongly and said we’re not going to let anyone intimidate anyone else at the polls. We’re going to call immediately the local sheriff. There’s all kinds of options for charging them—from trespassing if they won’t leave to a whole range of other options. But she was very strident that everyone has the right to vote without intimidation, and we’re not going to abide intimidation at the polls.

Alberta: I’m a little confused. If the premise of the concern she was relaying was that some local law enforcement offices had suggested that they wouldn’t enforce rules against intimidation, then how does saying that she’s going to call the sheriff immediately satisfy that concern?

Slotkin: I think it’s important that she has already thought through what her process is going to be on Election Day. The questions about enforcement were coming not from the clerks, but from lots of other city officials, county officials. And she had a process. I think to me, it made plain that she had communicated this to the sheriff’s office. And then others chimed in and said everyone should be checking with our local law enforcement to see what their plans are for that day. And if they won’t enforce, then the attorney general has made clear that the Michigan State Police can be called. That has been very public lately. And I spoke to the attorney general yesterday about this because we’re getting a ton of calls into my office, like, ‘I’m scared, what’s going to happen? My sheriff said he’s not gonna enforce this.’ And so, we recommended the procedure that every local clerk check in with their county clerk and with their local police chief and understand what the plan is. And then as a last resort the state police can be called if that’s required...

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/10/26/elissa-slotkin-michigan-electi...

93Limelite
oct. 26, 2020, 12:28pm

>92 margd:

The symbol of power in the USA is the "mace" just like it was in Medieval England and remains so to this day.

True, our "mace" may not be a literal heavy club. But it's a hell of a powerful weapon controlled entirely by one person -- the president. Immediately at 12 noon on Inauguration Day, the "page boy" who carries the heavy satchel with the communication device and nuclear codes leaves the incumbent's side, holding the satchel, taking the "mace" of presidential power to the successor.

Game over.

Trump can pout in his chair and shackle himself to it, refusing like the petulant brat he is, to vacate the seat of power. But it won't matter. In a matter of minutes, he's nothing more than the nobody he's always been, sans crown, sans scepter, sans mace. At which point we can hope US Marshalls are waiting at the exits to arrest him for corruption, tax evasion, bribery, and interstate fraud.

94margd
oct. 28, 2020, 9:46am

Neo-Nazi Ex-Marine And Porn Actor Arrested In Conspiracy To Hide Weapons From Government
The cases, involving three men, appear linked to threats against Alicia Garza, a Black Lives Matter movement co-founder.
Ryan J. Reilly and Christopher Mathias | 10/27/2020

...HuffPost first found the cases in federal court records after Alicia Garza, one of the co-founders of the Black Lives Matter movement, tweeted on Friday that the FBI had visited her home. She said agents had told her the FBI found her name on a list in the Idaho home of a man they’d arrested on weapons charges and suspected of associating with white supremacist groups.

Authorities have kept some court records sealed to date...

The defendants include Paul Kryscuk, 35, as well as two former Marines previously assigned to Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville, North Carolina: Liam Collins, 21, and Jordan Duncan, 25.

Kryscuk, according to an indictment, used the alias “Shaun Corcoran” to mail a pistol and suppressor to Jacksonville, where former Marine Lance Corporal Collins was residing at the time. The pair, according to the indictment, entered into a conspiracy to “unlawfully enrich themselves and others, by among other things, manufacturing and selling hard to obtain firearms and firearm parts in a manner that the ‘government would not know’ the purchasers had them.”

Kryscuk was a porn actor who went by the name of “Pauly Harker,” and has appeared in adult films that degrade Black women, according to websites that track abusive porn.

Collins was among a group of U.S. servicemen exposed in 2019 as frequent posters to an infamous neo-Nazi message board, leading the Marines Corps to launch an investigation into his extremist ties.

...Duncan served in the Marines for five years, the spokesperson said, leaving the service in 2018 as a corporal. He had worked as a cryptologic language analyst...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/camp-lejeune-white-supremacist-plot_n_5f983a72c5b...

95margd
oct. 28, 2020, 10:58am

I suspect R-appointed judge isn't expecting African-Americans to exercise open-carry right at polling sites.

No early voting in Michigan other than people dropping off absentee ballots, so MI AG Benson has a few days for her appeal.

Supreme Court Chief Justice Roberts signalled unwillingness to overturn state court decisions on state constitution matters so unless MI judge is way off base or Roberts sees this as a reasonable abridgment of second amendment, self-appointed "poll watchers" could be armed in Michigan on Nov 3. !!!!!!!

Michigan judge halts Benson's ban on open carry of guns at polling places
Beth LeBlanc | Oct 27, 2020

Michigan Court of Claims Judge Christopher Murray issued a preliminary injunction Tuesday that effectively halts Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson's directive banning the open carry of guns near polling locations on Election Day.

Attorney General Dana Nessel announced almost immediately after the decision was issued that her office would appeal to the Court of Appeals "as this issue is of significant public interest and importance to our election process."

The edict by Benson "smacks of an attempt at legislation" and lacks public input instead of following the regular rule-making process, Murray said during a Tuesday emergency hearing. Further, the state already has a law prohibiting voter intimidation, said Murray, an appointee of Republican former Gov. John Engler.

"The Legislature has said: Here are the places you cannot carry a weapon," Murray said during the hearing. "The secretary has expanded that. And so how is that in accordance with state law?"...

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/10/27/michigan-judge-halts-...

96margd
oct. 30, 2020, 5:54am

...FEDERAL COURT... HALT(S) PLANNED VOTER INTIMIDATION IN MINNESOTA
freespeechforpeople.org | October 29, 2020

MINNEAPOLIS—Today, a federal district court judge ruled in favor of the Minnesota chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-MN) and the League of Women Voters of Minnesota, granting a preliminary injunction in a move that prohibits private mercenary contractor Atlas Aegis and its chairman Anthony Caudle from moving forward with its illegal voter intimidation plans in the state. The plaintiffs filed their lawsuit last week to block the planned voter intimidation as unlawful under the Voting Rights Act.

Atlas Aegis, a Tennessee-based corporation with no ties to Minnesota, had planned to hire and deploy armed para-militia to polling sites in the state through an advertisement for armed security on Election Day in the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area that appeared on job posting websites on October 6, 2020, as well as interviews with the company’s chairman Caudle in The Washington Post.

In all, the court’s order requires the defendants to do the following:

The defendants are prohibited from deploying armed agents 2,500 feet of any Minnesota polling place, during early voting and on Election Day.
The defendants are prohibited from threatening to deploy armed agents to Minnesota.
The defendants are prohibited from otherwise threatening, intimidating, or coercing voters in connection with voting in Minnesota.
The defendants must send plaintiffs the names and contact information of the individuals involved in the illegal recruitment scheme.

U.S. District Court Judge Nancy E. Brasel noted that “Voter organizations must show that it is likely that the Defendants will attempt to intimidate voters or that their actions will do so … the voter organizations have shown both,” and that “The presence of armed ‘guards’ at the polls with no connection to state government is certainly likely to intimidate voters.”...

https://freespeechforpeople.org/cair-mn-lwv-welcome-federal-courts-halt-to-plann...

97margd
oct. 30, 2020, 5:59am

Don Winslow donwinslow | 4:53 AM · Oct 30, 2020:
The ONLY way to defeat this INSANITY is to DEFEAT TRUMP.

1:55 ( https://twitter.com/donwinslow/status/1322099389356146689 )
From Don Winslow

98margd
oct. 31, 2020, 4:40am

Bans on Guns at the Polls Are Plainly Constitutional
Sara Chimene-Weiss, Helen White | October 30, 2020

...local officials are...grappling with how to prevent armed confrontation at polling places, either directly, by prohibiting guns at the polls, or indirectly, via the Voting Rights Act of 1965 (which prohibits voter intimidation) and state disorderly conduct statutes.

...the 1776 Delaware State Constitution provided that “no person shall come armed to any of them, and no muster of the militia shall be made on that day.” It further provided that no “battalion or company” could come within a mile of the polling place for 24 hours before or after the election in order “to prevent any violence or force being used at the said elections.” The same year, Maryland passed a nearly identical resolution. New York followed suit a decade later. More and more states added similar laws during Reconstruction and the early 20th century.

District of Columbia v. Heller (2008)...self-defense (home)...did not “cast doubt” on “longstanding prohibitions,” such as “laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings.” These, the court explained, were “presumptively lawful regulatory measures.” Likewise, Scalia similarly embraced the Supreme Court’s long-standing precedent that the Second Amendment permitted governments to regulate “bodies of men” that “associate together as military organizations” and keep them from “parading with arms in cities and towns.”

Bonidy v. USPS (2015)...the USPS had an “important interest in creating a safe environment for its patrons and employees”...the USPS had an interest in extending this policy to parking lots for administrative convenience but also because “patrons must often pass through a USPS-owned parking lot to get to the door of a post office building” and “the security of the postal building itself is integrally related to the security of the parking lot adjacent to it.”

Burson v. Freeman (1992)...preventing voter intimidation is a “compelling” government interest.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/bans-guns-polls-are-plainly-constitutional

99lriley
oct. 31, 2020, 6:38am

The biggest domestic terrorist is Trump himself who is determined to kill off as many Americans as possible by forcing the nation to open up again as the pandemic is surging all over the country. He really is stupid and he really doesn't care how many people die.

100margd
Editat: oct. 31, 2020, 3:53pm

US election: Biden event in Texas cancelled as 'armed' Trump supporters threaten campaign bus
Matt Mathers @MattEm90 | Oct 31, 2020

Joe Biden campaigners were forced to cancel an event in Texas on Friday as tensions flared in the key battleground state ahead of election day.

Local Democrats said they were forced to pull the plug on a gathering scheduled to take place in Pflugerville – a small city about 17 miles north of Austin – due to "security reasons".

..."This is a first for me," said ( Sheryl Cole, a Democrat member of the Texas House of Representatives ) of the decision to scrap the event. "Unfortunately, pro-Trump protesters have escalated well beyond safe limits. Sorry to all who looked forward to this fun event," she added.

Congressman Lloyd Doggett, US representative candidate Wendy Davis and Austin mayor Steve Adler were among some of the speakers due to deliver remarks at the event.

A Biden/Harris campaign bus made a brief stop in downtown Austin and was heckled by around a dozen president Trump supporters. It was not immediately clear if Senator Harris was travelling on the bus.

According to local Democrats, the same group of Trump supporters has been following the bus around the country in an attempt to disrupt events in key battleground states.

..."Armed Trump trolls harassing Biden Bus on I-35, ramming volunteer vehicles & blocking traffic for 40 mins," (Rafael Anchía, a member of the Texas House of Representatives) said, before accusing Mr Trump's son Eric of inciting "violence".

"At least the Trump hearse is appropriate given the 200K+ Americans who have died due to his incompetence," he added, referencing a vehicle driven by Mr Trump's supporters to antagonise the bus...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/us-election-b...
__________________________________________________​

See video of truck ramming another vehicle:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/biden-camp-cancels-austin-texas-event-after-pro-tr...

101margd
oct. 31, 2020, 4:29pm

Florida:

Carmen Sesin @c_sesin | 12:56 PM · Oct 31, 2020:

This man is standing in front of the Coral Gables Branch Library, one of the busiest early voting sites in Miami-Dade County.
Image ( https://twitter.com/c_sesin/status/1322583128762929152/photo/1 )

102margd
nov. 1, 2020, 3:19pm

>100 margd: contd.

FBI investigating incident where ‘Trump train’ surrounded Biden bus
Nexstar Media Wire | 11/1/2020

...A spokeswoman with the FBI told KXAN they would have a statement as early as noon Sunday.

https://wgntv.com/news/fbi-investigating-incident-where-trump-train-surrounded-b...

103Molly3028
Editat: nov. 1, 2020, 10:31pm

Trump Supporters Spend Weekend Clogging America’s Highways

These Trump supporters are poster boys and gals for the need of mental health evaluations.

104lriley
nov. 2, 2020, 2:15am

#103--I saw a clip of this on the New Jersey Turnpike. It's so stupid.

105margd
nov. 2, 2020, 3:16am

Apparently, other MAGAts are blocking streets in NYC. Including Mario Cuomo bridge. Police, National Guard not called out last I read. (As law has been in BLM protests on hwys? Remember car went after them in MN, I think.)

Mohawks near our summer place block the hwy and train from time to time. It gets attention but even ithose of us sympathetic to their cause don't appreciate the disruption to travel plans if one is caught up in it.

106John5918
nov. 3, 2020, 12:30am

Kentucky state police training quoted Hitler to create ‘ruthless’ warriors (Guardian)

Quotes attributed to Adolf Hitler and Confederate general Robert E Lee appear in training materials once used by the Kentucky state police (KSP) to create “ruthless” warriors who would “fight to the death”...


107margd
Editat: nov. 3, 2020, 7:42am

>102 margd: Facebook, QAnon, Trump...

‘#OperationBlockTheBus’: Inside the Pro-Trump FB Group Where Biden Bus Convoy Was Organized
Jordan Liles | 2 November 2020

Activity in the private Facebook Group included pro-QAnon messages, cheering on the idea to "block" a Biden-Harris campaign bus, and talk of being armed with guns.

...One group member made a new post on Oct. 31, questioning other news outlets that said the Trump supporters were “armed.” A group member responded: “Yep we are armed and dangerous,” including an American flag emoji with the comment. Another remarked: “It’s Texas. Everyone is carrying!” In the same post, a commenter noted: “Cause it’s Texas and we don’t fuck around, we are always armed!!!” Other comments also included members who talked of being armed. One member said: “We are,” referring to being armed, and someone responded, “me too,” while a third person said: “Exactly we are.”

...In an extended video found in the Facebook Group, a dark-colored truck with Trump flags that clashed with the white SUV can be seen speeding up to tailgate the bus so that the SUV (which was accompanying the bus) could not get behind the bus. The white truck in front of the white SUV then appears to slow down, causing the white SUV to brake.

The white SUV appeared to be damaged in the incident. As pointed out in our earlier fact check, the SUV appeared to be over the highway road line. However, another angle in a video reposted by NowThis (beginning at 1:20) revealed more of what happened. The bus appeared to be changing lanes to the right lane. The SUV then attempted to stay with the bus, but the dark-colored truck sped up and braked behind the bus so as to not allow the white SUV over. Brake lights are visible on the dark-colored truck at the 1:24 mark in the NowThis video, just before the shot changes.

The Facebook Group was created in early September, and its member count grew above 4,000 on the night before Election Day...

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/11/02/operation-block-the-bus/
__________________________________________________​

Trump Supporters That Harassed Biden Bus Were Armed, Operation Organized in Private Facebook Group Linked to QAnon
Matthew Impelli | 11/2/20

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-supporters-that-harassed-biden-bus-were-armed-ope...

108margd
nov. 6, 2020, 5:07pm

2 men arrested near Philadelphia vote center had QAnon paraphernalia, AR-15 in car
Tom Winter, Ben Collins and Daniel Arkin | Nov. 6, 2020, 12:53 PM EST

Two armed men were arrested Thursday near the Philadelphia convention center where votes were being tallied, police said.

The men — a 61-year-old and a 42-year-old — traveled to the city from Virginia in a silver Hummer, and they were arrested after the FBI field office in Norfolk, Virginia, received a tip about their plans, Philadelphia Police Commissioner Danielle Outlaw said at a news conference Friday.

Police said they found the car parked and unoccupied around 10:20 p.m. Eastern; about seven minutes later, two police officers on bicycles saw the two men in possession of firearms.

Officers saw that one man had a Beretta 9mm pistol holstered on his hip, and the other man appeared to have a concealed Beretta .40 caliber handgun, according to Outlaw. They also had an AR-15 style weapon in their truck, with approximately 160 rounds of ammunition...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/2-men-detained-after-police-learn-possible-...

109Limelite
nov. 7, 2020, 9:58pm

I hope EVERYONE took note that today, on American Resurrection Day, demonstrators packed the streets, blocked vehicular traffic in NYC, Philly, Atlanta (a little -- they mostly socially distanced BRAVO!), Chicago, and D.C. without a gun to be seen anywhere.

And not a cop showed up to pepper spray them. The face of real Justice turned her blind eye and her hand stayed the absolutely unnecessary interference in their demonstrations by over-armed, pepper-spraying, baton-wielding, trigger-happy cops!

Who knew that a civil society could remain civil without a gun to be seen on anyone in the crowd? WE WHO VOTED FOR BIDEN ALL KNEW. And we showed those who voted for Trump how it's done.

110bohemima
nov. 8, 2020, 12:46pm

>109 Limelite:
Amen to this.

No need to intimidate those one disagrees with. Just show one’s support in a civil manner.

Is it pure coincidence that the need for, or the desire for the hyped-up, needlessly aggressive, and as you say, over-armed police vanished when the Enabler in Chief was defeated?

111librorumamans
nov. 8, 2020, 1:00pm

>110 bohemima: Is it pure coincidence that the need for, or the desire for the hyped-up, needlessly aggressive, and as you say, over-armed police vanished when the Enabler in Chief was defeated?

Yes, I expect so.

112bohemima
nov. 9, 2020, 7:03am

An Arkansas police chief has resigned after posting messages calling for the death of the “traitors” and “marxists” who voted for Biden

https://www.foxnews.com/us/arkansas-police-chief-resigns-after-allegedly-calling...

Note that this is from Fox News

113John5918
nov. 13, 2020, 10:34pm

Tech companies under pressure to ban far-right forum used for militia organizing (Guardian)

Pressure is mounting on tech companies to ban MyMilitia, a website used by far-right extremists and armed groups to organize, after it was linked to threats of violence against US protesters and lawmakers this week...

114margd
nov. 15, 2020, 7:56am

Matthew Gertz @MattGertz | 3:53 PM · Nov 14, 2020:
Fox anchor Eric Shawn, somewhat shaken, responds to his show's live B-roll of today's MAGA rally in DC:
"We just saw a very disturbing sign, it said 'Coming for Blacks and Indians, welcome to the New World Order.'"

0:57 ( https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1327716309782695936 )

115margd
nov. 16, 2020, 3:11pm

John Aravosis @aravosis | 7:54 PM · Nov 15, 2020:

This is video of the man Trump and Ivanka defended today.
He’s a white supremacist who committed about a dozen felonies in this video.
Donald and Ivanka shared the end of the video where this violent man is finally stopped.
They didn’t share this part.

0:45 ( https://twitter.com/aravosis/status/1328139417245061120 )
From Bench Appearo

___________________________________________

Ivanka Trump @IvankaTrump | 8:21 AM · Nov 15, 2020:
The media’s near total silence about the physical violence being perpetrated against conservatives is shameful & dangerous.
Just image the outrage and indignation if this went the other way.
Violence is never the answer and instigators must be condemned and prosecuted.

116lriley
Editat: nov. 16, 2020, 5:58pm

#115--he wanted a fight and he got one. No doubt they'll end up blaming it on antifa when it was really just ordinary people not allowing themselves to be pushed around by this idiot. The proud boys, oathkeepers and neo-nazi's belong to their categories of 'good people'.

117margd
nov. 21, 2020, 3:02am

According to Kyle Rittenhouse's attorney, donations from 'Silver Spoon's actor Ricky Schroder and My Pillow CEO @realMikeLindell helped to put the fund over the top.
- Yashar Ali yashar · 6h

It’s amazing how these people like Ricky Schroder & Mike Lindell will proclaim to be pro-life, but turn around & bail out Kyle Rittenhouse who allegedly murdered two people advocating for Black people not being killed by cops. A true showcase in pure racism!
- AprilDRyan @AprilDRyan | 9:55 PM · Nov 20, 2020

118Molly3028
Editat: nov. 22, 2020, 8:02am

Rittenhouse is a George Zimmerman and/or Trump (I could shoot someone
on Fifth Avenue .......) wannabe. The pillow guy and Ricky Schroder are
typical brain-washed cult followers carrying out the wishes of cult leader
Trump. Trumplandia on steroids.

119margd
nov. 22, 2020, 8:52am

Armed fascist militia defied law banning guns and menaced capitol of US state of Virginia.
Cops did nothing

2:18 ( https://twitter.com/borzou/status/1330424193519931392 )
From Ford Fischer

- Borzou Daragahi @borzou | 3:13 AM · Nov 22, 2020

120bohemima
nov. 22, 2020, 8:57am

>117 margd:

Yep. Pro Life.
That is, until people are born. Then it’s every man, woman, and child for themselves.

There some few organizations which do make efforts to help mothers and babies, and who make efforts to protect people and families.

Until every Pro Lifer comes out against the death penalty, they’re not, in fact, pro life.

121John5918
nov. 22, 2020, 9:22am

>120 bohemima:

And against war.

122lriley
Editat: nov. 22, 2020, 9:50am

#119--the guy speaking in that clip is Mike Dunn and he's linked to a Virginia militia as well as the Boogaloo Bois. He's also like 21-22 maybe? He was arrested in mid-October for violating Virginia's open carry laws. Later on the police chief of Newport News was seen apologizing to him and offering him a Nestle's chocolate milk and allowed him to make a speech on the steps of that city's police station.

Dunn is also linked to a possible plot to assassinate Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam that Pres-elect Biden briefly referenced two or three weeks ago. That plot came to light after the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plot was exposed. So at least some Virginia police officials are treating this character with kid gloves.

123bohemima
Editat: nov. 22, 2020, 9:55am

>121 John5918:
Indeed.

I find the Catholic Church’s evolving positions both hopeful and helpful. Their support of those in need has saved many lives.

I find the positions of those vehement “Pro Lifers” whose concern stops at birth to be both cruel and retrograde.

124Limelite
Editat: des. 23, 2020, 4:25pm

FBI: White Supremacist Teen Plotted Attack on US Power Grid

Associated Press reporter Amy Forliti reports white supremacists intended to attack power stations in the southeastern United States in the Summer of 2021.
In an affidavit that was "mistakenly unsealed," the FBI alleges that an Ohio-based teenager and informant said he wanted the white supremacists to fast-track their plot if President Donald Trump lost the 2020 presidential election.

The teen was in a text group with more than a dozen people in the fall of 2019 when he introduced the idea of saving money to buy a ranch where they could participate in militant training, according to the affidavit, which was filed under seal along with a search warrant application in Wisconsin’s Eastern U.S. District Court in March.
The documents were quickly resealed. One can only hope that the teen and other informants have been and still are in a witness protection program.

A different informant (it's unclear) said the teen “definitely wanted to be operational for violence, but also activism,” ASAP if Trump lost is reelection bid, definitely in time to be up and running for operations in the 2024 election cycle.

The 17-year-old also shared plans
. . .about a plot to create a power outage by shooting rifle rounds into power stations in the southeastern U.S. The teen called the plot “Light's Out” and there were plans to carry it out in the summer of 2021, the affidavit states.
The affidavit identifies three people by name and references others who were allegedly communicating with or part of the group. That personal data remains unpublished since charges have not been filed.

No imminent public safety threat related to this matter exists according to the FBI's lead attorney in the case who would make no further comment as the investigation is ongoing. Notwithstanding those assurances,
Some group members also indicated that they were prepared to die for their beliefs. One man from Oshkosh, Wisconsin, allegedly told the Ohio teen: “I can say with absolute certainty that I will die for this effort. I swear it on my life.” The teen replied: “I can say the same,” the court documents state.
The group's apparent larger mission was to establish a "fascist society" complete with the establishment of "Nazi militant cells around the country like those of the neo-Nazi network the Atomwaffen Division."

Be sure to read the linked story to the end to learn how the plot was uncovered.

125John5918
des. 27, 2020, 11:07pm

Nashville blast: officials identify Anthony Warner as the bomber (Guardian)

Suspect died in the explosion that rocked city on Christmas Day as officials reportedly examine whether he had 5G paranoia...

126MsMixte
des. 29, 2020, 5:54pm

Parker, Colorado Republicans decide to perform some domestic terrorism on public health workers.

" The leader of the Parker Republicans is posting the names and home addresses of public health employees online with veiled threats of retribution for COVID-19 restrictions.

Mark Hall, lead co-chair of the Parker Republicans, began publishing the names and home addresses of public health workers Monday, adding, “Take this information and make your own decisions.” "

https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/next/next-with-kyle-clark/public-health...

In other news, pandemic politics are driving health care workers from small rural towns:

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/28/950861977/toxic-individualism-pandemic-politics-d...

I can't imagine why health care workers would want to leave--anyone care to take a guess?

127John5918
des. 30, 2020, 11:13pm

Nashville explosion: Police probe conspiracy theory motive (BBC)

US investigators are trying to determine whether conspiracy theories motivated the suspect in the Christmas Day bombing in Nashville... The suspect is said to have expressed support for unfounded theories and would camp out to hunt aliens. Police are also probing whether he believed 5G conspiracy theories...

The suspect had reportedly made statements about a "lizard people" conspiracy theory which claims politicians and celebrities such as Justin Bieber and the Obamas are lizards with alien origins which are now taking over the world...

128kiparsky
gen. 6, 2:11pm

Reported by the Times: "The Capitol Police have informed congressional aides that they are preparing to destroy a suspicious package and that “a loud bang may be heard in the area.”"

129Limelite
Editat: gen. 6, 2:38pm

MAGA Hat Wearing Mob Breaches Capitol Building

Both House & Senate in emergency recess due to threat of rioters. House members sheltering in place. Rioters parading in Statuary Hall, unchallenged by Capitol Police.

Republican HQ office closed because of suspicious pkg.

Mob is milling around outside Senate Chamber. Pence has been escorted outside. Capitol police claim they have it contained, in spite of the parade of rioters moving through the Hall. No action against this incursion being taken.

Crowd is white, yet no police brutality in sight, not a handcuff to be seen, not a baton or gun deployed. Surprised I am not.

Homeland Security reinforcements struggling to get through crowd in patrol cars. Rioters menacing law enforcement and police being turned away. Still NO GUNS, unlike protests against police brutality who were confronted by militarized forces, were beaten, arrested, and pepper-sprayed.

Reports from CNBC, MSNBC, AP.
"Security Threat" reported by FOX
__________________________________

Seditionists Storm Capitol to interfere and stop Constitutional process, following Trump's instigation. Being described as a "bloodless coup attempt."

Mayor institutes 6:00 PM curfew. Trump refuses to call on his supporters to stand down This is a terrorist attack on the United States of America.

Capitol police donning riot gear, awaiting orders and reinforcements, deployed on balcony as observers.

130Limelite
gen. 6, 2:46pm

Capitol Staff Locked in Their Offices

Members of House told by Cap. Pol. to "prepare to duck under desks and take cover." Evacuate to cloakroom if protestors break in. Locked down.

Senates inside chamber. Several Republicans reportedly outraged and angry at their colleagues. "Shameful." "Disgusting."

Unclear if Pence still trapped in the Capitol Bldg, law enforcement in discussion about his further security.

Unknown how many or if any are armed.

Trump tweets:
Not a call to stand down. Flacid remarks. . ."support Cap. Pol. and law enforcement. Stay peaceful."
POTUS advisor says, Shame on Trump throwing gasoline on fire." Trump responsible for "bonfire of the insanities."

Law enforcement that in June pummeled people in order to get selfie holding a Bible. This riot called, "Trump's Rebellion."

131Limelite
Editat: gen. 6, 2:54pm

CIVIL WAR: ARMED STAND-OFF @ House Front Door.

Police standing, guns drawn as individuals trying to gain entrance to House Chamber. Window to entrance door of House BROKEN. House members being evacuated. Rioters, now labeled 'anarchists,' overrun law enforcement.

Congressman Connolly reports members been given gas masks. Tear gas used in Rotunda.

Fox News totally flummoxed and mealy-mouthed criticism of Trump's lack of direction. Trying to excuse insurrectionists by claiming they were promised today election would be overturned, and they see that nothing like that happened. Works itself to point of saying "This is a political failure, not a security failure."

Reinforcements from various law enforcement agencies will begin to disperse people outside.

132Limelite
gen. 6, 3:09pm

Congress Members Demand Immediate IMPEACHMENT of Trump

Republican member says "Trump you started it. Now stop it"

Romney outraged

Female evacuated on stretcher from Capitol, covered in blood and attempts made to supply O2 and recuscitate her.

Senator videos rioters on Senate floor. Also photo of rioter occupying the House rostrum.

Real effortt disperse crowd not apparent outside. Concentration at doors.

133LolaWalser
gen. 6, 3:11pm

!!!

They really have no limit...

134Limelite
gen. 6, 3:23pm

WHERE'S THE CAVALRY?

Republican agitator senators echoing Trump with weak pleas to cease & desist.

World witnesses in horror.

Video shows some insurrectionists exiting Capitol, arms raised. Other TV image of rioters face down on floor with law holding long guns standing guard over them. Traces of tear gas in Stat. Hall.

People treated for injuries. Report of 1 person shot. Report of 3 shots fired

Evidence of rioters inside the Capitol being rounded up as West front seems to show Cap. Pol. regaining some control.

Images of man vaping in what appears to be Congressional office and another of man hanging from Senate wall.

Images of Cap Pol. with drawn guns, aiming at rioters through chamber (House?) windows,

Trump has no intention of speaking, press release states. "Monitoring situation on TVs tuned to broadcast news."

135kiparsky
gen. 6, 3:50pm

The DC National Guard has been called out. Apparently, this call was made by the Army, NOT by the President.

136margd
Editat: gen. 6, 4:14pm

Ben Jacobs @Bencjacobs | 3:36 PM · Jan 6, 2021:
This may be the lasting image of today
Image ( https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/1346914618816524294/photo/1 )

Chris Lu @ChrisLu44
From @nytimes: "Pro-Trump protesters stormed Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s august suite of offices, flipping over tables and pulling photos off the walls"
This is reprehensible
Image ( https://twitter.com/ChrisLu44/status/1346921501753274368/photo/1 )

Timothy Burke @bubbaprog | 4:08 PM · Jan 6, 2021:
Cops are taking selfies with the terrorists.
0:09 ( https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/status/1346926555981705216 )

137Limelite
gen. 6, 5:58pm

Brace yourselves, America.

Tomorrow will be a bloody day.

138Molly3028
gen. 6, 6:22pm

https://www.newsweek.com/graham-tweet-about-being-destroyed-if-trump-nominated-r...

"If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed.......and
we will deserve it," Graham tweeted in 2016 when
Trump was campaigning for the Republican presidential
nomination.

Our democracy is a delicate Faberge egg that these
nuts in today's DC riots are kicking around like a
football.

139Limelite
Editat: gen. 7, 12:18am

BREAKING: DC Police Chief Reports 4 People Died During Capitol Riot

The woman seen shot on video who died later this afternoon has been identified as Ashli Babbit, a Trump supporter and a 15 year Air Force vet from San Diego, CA. She was shot in the chest but the shooter is unknown.

In addition one male and two other females also died on scene.
During a press conference Wednesday evening with Mayor Murial Bowser after the violence in Washington, Contee explained that there are few details on the deaths. The DC Medical Examiner hasn't looked at the bodies of the three additional people who died so it's unclear if they were shot, beaten or trampled. All he would say is that the 1 adult male and 2 adult females suffered from medical emergencies resulting in their deaths.

Contee also reported 52 arrests and 14 Metro PD officers sustained injuries.

The four-star officer directly connected the assault on the Capitol to Trump's remarks.

_____________________________________
UPDATE
Babbit died from a gunshot wound to the neck, witnesses say–the fatal round was fired by a law enforcement officer. (NOTE: I cannot vouch for this source as credible and reliable, nor otherwise.)

At a press conference, D.C. police said Babbit was shot while attempting to “gain access to the House room” where Congressmembers were still in session.
_____________________________________
UPDATE
BREAKING: D.C. Mayor Extends Public Emergency Through End of Trump's Time In Officehttps://t.co/d9eUqPXSgZ pic.twitter.com/OYCo2dHAls

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) January 7, 2021

140margd
Editat: gen. 7, 7:13am

Contrast defense against Proud Boys v BLM. Capitol v Lincoln Memorial:

Eric Feigl-Ding @DrEricDing | 10:16 PM · Jan 6, 2021:
WHOA—The US Capitol siege today started at this exact moment — when the Capitol police were completely caught off guard when rioters stormed the fence and overran them. Where was the backup? Why wasn’t the National Guard pre-stationed there? So angry.

1:42 ( https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1347019319566340101 )
From ELIJAH SCHAFFER

--------------------------------------------------​

@GutsyWoman19 | 10:19 PM · Jan 6, 2021:
This was the preparation for a Black Lives Matter peaceful protest this summer. Members of the National Guard were deployed near the White House ahead of peaceful protests against police brutality. Quite a difference.

Image ( https://twitter.com/gutsywoman19/status/1347019893280034816/photo/1 )

_____________________________________________

Don't tell North Korea...

Gary Hatch @GaryHatch | 12:19 AM · Jan 7, 2021:
‘We spend $750 billion annually on "defense" and the center of American government fell in two hours
to the duck dynasty and the guy in the chewbacca bikini...

Image ( https://twitter.com/GaryHatch/status/1347050142038323203/photo/1 )

________________________________________________

Photo ~ mid-way down: invader carries zip-ties? Speculation is ties are for kidnapping of politicians...

Trump rally turns violent as rioters storm US Capitol ( 80 PHOTOS )
6:03 p.m. EST Jan. 6, 2021
https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/news/nation/2021/01/06/trump-supporters...

141LolaWalser
gen. 7, 9:29am

the center of American government fell in two hours
to the duck dynasty and the guy in the chewbacca bikini...


Makes one appreciate the politely dressed invaders from the last time, eh? :)

This is the most startling to me--how easy and fast they took over. Inside job obviously, both the prep and the execution.

142kiparsky
gen. 7, 12:18pm

>141 LolaWalser: Inside job? You think?

I saw indications during the chaotic reporting yesterday that the federal enforcement agencies were trying to pin this on Mayor Bowser, but I think it is reasonable to hope that AG Garland will be able to do a more serious inquest, and root out the people responsible for allowing our legislators to be put in the hands of a seditious and treasonous mob.

143Limelite
gen. 7, 1:30pm

FBI Seeks Citizens' Help Identifying People Who Incited Capitol Riots.

Rep. Karen Bass (D-Calif.) on Thursday tweeted a photo of President Trump in response to FBI appeal to public. Now there's a TRUE represent of the Party of Law and Order.
Found one. https://t.co/WNLkBl9MYI pic.twitter.com/Cx7obp0p61

— Congressmember Bass (@RepKarenBass) January 7, 2021

144lriley
gen. 7, 2:05pm

I'm still just catching up on a lot of stuff. Been in the hospital since New Year's eve.

Looking at all these intruders--quite a large % of them seem like they come from cartoon fantasy land and it's obvious that other than busting into the white house---they had on idea what it is they actually wanted. It was a show and tell and show off and these people are stoking each other but had really no plan, no objective beyond slouching in Pelosi's chair, standing behind the Speaker's podium and taking selfies of themselves. So they stopped the electoral college from certifying for a few hours---so what? These people are supposed to be adults but this was in no way the behavior of rational, thinking adults. There was nothing revolutionary about any of this...it was just a sad and pathetic spectacle adults acting like little children.

It doesn't say a whole lot for United States citizenry and it certainly doesn't say a lot for Trump who played a huge part in instigating it but who always leaves an escape hatch of deniability. It doesn't say a whole lot for Washington DC cops either who treated these losers with a lot more empathy and consideration than they would have for a black lives matter protest. Pretty much it got as bad as a bit of teargas. Anyone looking in from the outside can see from this godawful spectacle the farce that American culture has become.

145LolaWalser
gen. 7, 3:03pm

>142 kiparsky:

Yeah, exactly! Beginning with him...

>144 lriley:

Cripes, I hope all is well, Larry. Wait--you're still in the hospital? It's good to see you posting!

146Limelite
gen. 7, 3:09pm

BREAKING: First Charging Document Against MAGArioters

Federal charges filed against two men for their arrest.

147Limelite
gen. 7, 3:15pm

Second Man Charged

Tries to minimize his assault with sudden discovery of good manners.
Alan Feuer
@alanfeuer
NEW: Federal charges filed against Mark Leffingwell for assault on a federal law enforcement officer at yesterday's Capitol Hill riot.
After hitting a Capitol PO repeatedly in the head & chest, complaint says, the suspect...apologized.

148lriley
gen. 7, 5:11pm

#145--Right now I'm at the Wilmot Center in Rochester which is connected to Strong Memorial and the University of Rochester. I transferred up from the local hospital yesterday. Complications from my multiple myeloma treatment led to a fracture in the L-5 vertebra---which kind of sucks and I'm pretty achy. I've been able to get to my feet the last few days and can walk short distances---maybe 150' at a time (with a walker) and stamina is picking up a bit. I think that's pretty good all things considering. I'm going to be here at least a week and I wouldn't be surprised if it's longer. The people here are great though so and I can work with them. Made sure to bring a few books with me too. Also maybe this will help me score a medical marijuana prescription before it's all over.

149Limelite
gen. 7, 5:59pm

>148 lriley:

Yow! Get well soon. Believe me, I can sympathize and empathize and know what you're going through, even while being aware that everyone reacts to treatments individually.

Best wishes for a return to your new normal. May your recovery be swift and uneventful.

150Molly3028
Editat: gen. 7, 6:29pm

https://www.businessinsider.com/my-pillow-parler-users-blame-antifa-us-capitol-r...
My Pillow CEO Mike Lindell and pro-Trump lawyer Lin Wood spread misinformation about Antifa leading the Capitol rioters

???!!! ~ Trump's cult groupies want the world to know
that they, not Antifa, were the Capitol's angry rioters.
Apparently, these two dummies don't know that the
rioters don't want Antifa to get any credit for their well-
planned insurrection.

151librorumamans
gen. 7, 6:59pm

>148 lriley:

For some reason my earlier post ended up in the ether. Once again, best wishes! I hope your progress continues steadily!

152kiparsky
gen. 7, 7:19pm

Oof! Get better, lriley!

153margd
Editat: gen. 8, 1:59am

>144 lriley: Stay safe! Don't snuggle with no COVIDs! ;) If you had to be in hospital, yesterday was a great day for TV-to-remember, though!

154davidgn
gen. 7, 8:01pm

>148 lriley: Damn, Larry. Be safe, and best wishes for a speedy recovery. And if they don't treat you right, tell 'em you're going straight to Roswell Park. ;-)

155LolaWalser
gen. 7, 8:26pm

>148 lriley:

So sorry about what you're going through! What a time. I hope the downfall of the orange mofo helps you to recover ASAP. Plus cannabis. :)

156lriley
gen. 7, 8:54pm

FWIW nobody ever knows when their last day is going to be but I'm not planning on rolling over. I can still appreciate things day by day. Whenever I do pass over I'm not planning on taking any baggage animosities towards others with me either.

Yesterday for me just had to be commented on though because that is the most disgraceful thing I've ever witnessed in my lifetime representing a fairly large % of the American population though I'm sure historically there are things to compare it to--like the mob lynchings of black people or the massacres of Native Americans. That the head of state would encourage this horrific act yesterday and that there were so many witless imbeciles to play out his paranoid and mad delusions really puts into perspective how much this country needs a psychiatric intervention of mass proportion. These people are angry?---well maybe but their first order or business is to show us their superhero cartoon fantasies. Out with the selfies and then sit in Nancy's chair and then they were out of ideas. Nowhere to go--eventually they were swept out into the street like rubbish and the electoral college process did what it always has done. For the jackasses that took part the fantastical has become the real. They're not saving anybody. They're not revolutionaries either--they're pathetic nobodies with no real idea of what they stand for. None of what happened yesterday was really about freedom or patriotism--it was just wall to wall self glorification.

157MsMixte
gen. 7, 9:33pm

>156 lriley: Excellent assessment!

I think that the FBI and National Security people are going to be looking through all these images and picking out the people who actually looked as if they knew what they were doing.

Someone planted a working bomb near the RNC headquarters. It apparently could have done a lot of damage. The whole building is a crime scene, and bad actors could have stolen information, planted bugs, etc., etc., since the mob overran the police.

The expectation now is that if the mobs return, the more determined ones, the ones who won't care if they get caught with firearms, will be taking part. I hope that whoever is in charge of securing the Capitol will be taking this far more seriously, up to and including use of lethal means of control.

158davidgn
Editat: gen. 7, 9:43pm

>157 MsMixte: Also my first thought. These overgrown children have created an opportunity for any competent operatives. Who knows who might have taken advantage. At a minimum, they'll be bug sweeping for weeks.

159Limelite
Editat: gen. 7, 9:38pm

Capitol Police Officer 5th Victim of Terrorists

Not until the announcement of his death tonight had any information appeared that the insurgents had seriously wounded a Capitol Police officer by beating him with a fire extinguisher.

The officer had been on life support due to a mortal injury received when he responded to the attack on the Capitol. He was struck in the head by an insurgent swinging a fire extinguisher.
Alexandra Limon
@AlexLimonNews
#BREAKING A source confirms a US Capitol Police Officer has been taken off life support and died, after being hit in the head with a fire extinguisher by a rioter yesterday. #NexstarDC

160davidgn
Editat: gen. 7, 9:49pm

161MsMixte
gen. 7, 9:57pm

>160 davidgn: I'm going to hope that President Biden orders an investigation into this very problem. Why are there people like that in the military, with those types of jobs and clearances? Time to get them out of there.

162Limelite
Editat: gen. 7, 10:04pm

>160 davidgn:

I find no credible source that describes either her active duty career or later service in the Air Force and in the Reserves or Air Nat'l. Guard that suggests she was anything more than a military security guard and maybe, after active duty, law enforcement backup, something like the Capitol Police.

Here's the NYT article.
While on active duty from 2004 to 2008, she met and married her first husband, Timothy McEntee. She worked as an enlisted security forces controller, a job whose duties include guarding gates at Air Force bases, and was deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq.

She then served in the Air Force Reserves and the Air National Guard. In the Guard, she was assigned to a unit based near Washington that is known as the “Capital Guardians,” because one of their primary missions is defending the city. Security forces in the squadron regularly train with riot shields and clubs for what the Air Force calls “civil disturbance missions.”

Ms. Babbitt left the military as a relatively low-ranking senior airman in 2016
, several years before she would have become eligible for a pension and other benefits.
An enlisted regular soldier/airman, lacking a college degree, or foreign language fluency is not the "type" given UC assignments.

163davidgn
Editat: gen. 7, 10:09pm

>162 Limelite: Hadn't yet read that. Glad to learn those details and that initial reports may have been inaccurate.

ETA: I was making reference to initial reports such as this.
https://www.kusi.com/kusi-news-confirms-identity-of-woman-shot-and-killed-inside...
"The woman is Ashli Babbit, a 14-year veteran, who served four tours with the US Air Force, and was a high level security official throughout her time in service."

164kiparsky
gen. 7, 10:11pm

>156 lriley: Yeah, the Other and I were commenting on that as well... it was sort of "okay, we've taken control of the seat of government... and we've taken some selfies... now what?"

The bros in the House chamber actually looked sort of bored.

I wonder if they'll think it was worth it when they hear their sentence pronounced.

165Limelite
gen. 7, 10:12pm

>162 Limelite:

Agree. News is "breaking' at breakneck speed today. Late this afternoon, two people had been charged. Tonight I read 55 terrorist have been charged and Betsy DeVos has resigned. It's impossible to keep up and the details that eventually change the stories practically beyond recognition of their original form keep being revealed.

166kiparsky
gen. 7, 10:24pm

>160 davidgn: Looking at that first link... if that's what she was doing when she was in her car, probably it's better she died before she killed someone else.

I don't mean to be callous, but as a bicyclist, I have pretty strong feelings about dirtbag fucktards who use their distractionators while they're operating a vehicle, because I'm pretty sure one of them is going to be what kills me in the end, and I'm already fucking pissed off about it in advance.

167Limelite
gen. 7, 10:33pm

>166 kiparsky:

Is that what counselors mean when they talk about "end of life planning"? ;^)

168kiparsky
gen. 7, 10:50pm

>167 Limelite: More or less... it's good to know that my last words will not be printable in a family newspaper, at least.

169John5918
gen. 7, 10:51pm

>148 lriley:

Different time zones so I'm only just reading about your hospitalisation. Get well soon, Larry. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

170John5918
gen. 7, 11:09pm

Biden decries Trump mob: 'Don't call them protesters. They were domestic terrorists' (Guardian)

President-elect Joe Biden condemned as “domestic terrorists” the violent mob of Donald Trump supporters that stormed the US Capitol on Wednesday, calling the assault on the seat of American government “one of the darkest days in the history of our nation”.

“They weren’t protesters – don’t dare call them protesters,” Biden said in remarks from Wilmington, Delaware, on Thursday. “They were a riotous mob. Insurrectionists. Domestic terrorists. It’s that basic. It’s that simple”...
En/na Domestic Terrorism (2) ha continuat aquest tema.