Hail Mary/Electoral rules

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Hail Mary/Electoral rules

nov. 25, 2020, 3:29pm

It is the Electoral College where the actual election of an American president occurs. Each state certifies votes to the Electoral College — a figure that adds up to the number of members the states have in the two houses of Congress, or 535. (In addition, for Electoral College purposes, the District of Columbia is given three electors, for a total of 538.) Thus, a candidate must have at least 270 electoral votes to become president.

Article II of the Constitution states that electors are appointed “in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct.” All but a couple of states have directed that all of their electoral votes will go to the candidate with the greater number of statewide votes. The question is, what happens if legislators decide they cannot say with confidence who won the greater number of votes?

Such controversies have arisen before, as in 2004, when Democrats objected to counting Ohio’s electoral votes due to voting irregularities. The greatest controversy occurred in 1876 after a close, heated election between Republican Rutherford Hayes and Democrat Samuel Tilden. Like Biden, Tilden won the popular vote and more electoral votes (184, to Hayes’s 165). The problem was that rampant fraud was alleged in Florida, Louisiana and South Carolina. (For example, South Carolina reported 101 percent of voters voting). The controversy led to rival sets of electors being sent to Congress. A long fight led to the improbable election of Hayes as president.

It is possible that such multistate litigation could push the challenges beyond the end of the safe-harbor period for certification on Dec. 8 or beyond Dec. 23, when those votes are supposed to be submitted to Congress. Indeed, it could force a fight on Jan. 6, when Congress gathers in joint session to count the votes.

Unfortunately, the Electoral Count Act (ECA) of 1887 is hardly a model of clarity and would become the focus of litigation itself. Under some circumstances, Vice President Pence could issue a ruling in favor of Trump, but one senator and one House member could challenge his ruling.

What if there were insufficient votes overall to elect a president? This is where we could see a rare court intervention in a contested election in Congress. The ECA is ambiguous on what it means to have a majority of electors; it does not clearly state whether a majority of “electors appointed” means a majority of the 538 electors (270) or simply a majority of those electors accepted or successfully certified (allowing election with less than 270 electoral votes). There also are untested terms and provisions, ranging from the weight given to the decision of governors and the meaning of what is “lawfully certified” or whether votes were “regularly given.”

There also is the potential under the 12th Amendment for a “contingent election” when there is a tie or insufficient votes. In such a case, Trump could win again. In that case, the vote for president is held in the House based on state delegations, not individual members. Republicans likely will control a majority of state delegations in the House, despite having fewer seats overall — as well as the Senate, where Pence could be reelected.


nov. 25, 2020, 4:04pm

Gee, then Mr. Turley must be glad that while his article is an interesting "what if" exercise, especially given that Biden's win is decisive, he need have no concerns that his explorations apply. Great stuff to promote discussion in Constitutional Law class at Georgetown U., though.

Always good to discuss possible danger lurking when one is safe from such dangers feared. 74 more electoral votes for Biden and his 6M+ more votes handsomely enable America to avoid any circumstances like he addresses. This time.

nov. 25, 2020, 5:12pm


Is it because the virus keeping a lot of us away from Fantasyland? Is that why we’re engaging in this nonsense?

nov. 25, 2020, 11:28pm

"given that Biden's win is decisive"???

nov. 25, 2020, 11:29pm


where have i heard that before...?

des. 5, 2020, 2:54pm

I'm interested by the title of this thread - "Hail Mary". I'm not familiar with its use in this sort of context, but I'm guessing it means some sort of unexpected and/or last minute intervention. But my question would be how such an obviously Roman Catholic phrase (indeed the beginning of a prayer) has found its way into the mainstream of the USA, which is nominally a secular state but to the extent that it is influenced by religion at all, it is a brand of evangelical protestant Christianity rather than Roman Catholicism. Anybody know the history of this usage?

Editat: des. 5, 2020, 2:59pm

>6 John5918: In American terms, it refers to an American football term of art with roots in Catholic university teams. But the meaning you inferred is basically correct.

des. 5, 2020, 3:20pm

A hail mary is a long pass, sometimes a desperation pass.

des. 5, 2020, 4:56pm

Ironically, the presidential candidate who won the populace vote and is expected to win in the Electoral College is the devout Catholic.

des. 5, 2020, 6:50pm

>9 aspirit: >6 John5918:

John will be chuffed to find that "LifeSite," the "traditionalist" Catholic site long a bane of normal Catholics like John and me has gone past trad malignity, and then anti-Francis schism and weirdness, into absolutely bonkers pro-Trump, virus conspiracy-theory fuckwittery—election fraud, the "Great Reset," "casedemic," etc.


des. 5, 2020, 6:57pm

>4 Earthling1:

Given that the longer Trump screws around in his self-indulgent litigation without standing, the wider the margin of votes between the LOSER and Biden becomes; the "more decisive" is President Elect Biden's victory, to the point where "wiped Trump off the map" does not even approach being an exaggeration.

Let's see where Biden's winning margin stands tonight:
7,059,780 more American voters prefer Biden than Trump for president. A million more votes for Joe in 10 days of continuous Trump court humiliations.

des. 5, 2020, 7:37pm


Really deep, man, like real real deep.

des. 5, 2020, 7:38pm

Electors choose the president. I guess some of you were sick that day of school.

Editat: des. 5, 2020, 8:18pm

Keep hanging on to that thread of forlorn hope.


des. 5, 2020, 9:06pm

>13 Earthling1:

Like most delusional Trump supporters, you don't get real news. You're soooo stuck in the past with false hope. IT'S OVER: Biden won the Electoral College yesterday when CA certified its election and it's 55 Electors are committed to Sleepy Joe, who didn't have to open his eyes to beat Trump and capture 279 EC votes on Friday.

Go ahead. Pretend otherwise if it salves your ego. Cling to your thoughts and prayers.

Editat: des. 5, 2020, 9:15pm

>15 Limelite: Personal attack again and it should be flagged. I say the same things to you over and over.

We need one of those signs that says, "This workplace hasn't had a personal attack for...10 minutes..."

You don't know how the electoral college works. You might want to look into it and prepare yourself for a very big fall.

des. 5, 2020, 9:19pm

>15 Limelite: Good lord, is he still going on about the election that Trump lost? Wow...

des. 5, 2020, 10:08pm

>17 kiparsky: Good lord, now he thinks he's an expert on the Electoral College. Talk about a rich fantasy life!

des. 5, 2020, 10:23pm

>18 Limelite: So glad I blocked him. So glad. I can't imagine what you must be putting yourself reading that stuff. Or why.

Editat: des. 6, 2020, 3:48am

>7 davidgn:, >8 Earthling1:

Thanks for the explanation. A few years ago I spent some time as a Visiting Scholar at Notre Dame, so I got an idea of how big American football is there, and how important universities are in the national game.

>10 timspalding:

Thanks, Tim. Good grief, what a load of bollocks that article is. I gave up when I got to the bit where he compares Boris Johnson of all people with "Communist China admirers Justin Trudeau and Joe Biden". I like to think that the views expressed in these right wing Catholic websites have little following outside the culture-war-ridden USA, and that even in the USA there is a huge majority of sensible normal Catholics to counterbalance it. Not just Biden (thanks, >9 aspirit:) but all the good US Catholics I know who are involved in justice and peace, environmental concern ("care for creation" or "creation spirituality" in Catholic jargon), the Catholic Nonviolence Initiative, humanitarian and human rights work, welcoming the stranger (migrant issues - Matthew 25:35), internationalism, ecumenism, inter-faith diaogue, charitable work, health and education, social justice, etc - or just keeping their heads down and participating in normal parish activities without being influenced by all this hate-filled nonsense.

I like the word "fuckwittery". It rolls nicely off the tongue.

des. 6, 2020, 2:18am

"The Constitution, moreover, makes the state legislatures supreme on the matter of appointing electors to choose the president. It is a common misimpression that We the People have a “right” to vote. There is no such right in our founding law. But state legislatures long ago delegated their power to the public, and popular presidential elections have thus been held for the better part of two centuries. There is no legal requirement, though, that popular elections be conducted or that they be dispositive. "


Editat: des. 6, 2020, 12:51pm

Thus, a candidate must have at least 270 electoral votes to become president.
Joe Biden has 279 ECVs since Friday when CA cert'ed.

Do try to keep up, Trumpty-Dumbpties. IT'S OVER!

Editat: des. 6, 2020, 1:08pm

>10 timspalding:, >20 John5918:

As an antidote to the lunatic fringe Catholic website which Tim references, here's a more mainstream Catholic take on the pandemic - can't get more mainstream Catholic than the pope, I suppose.

Pope Francis: A Crisis Reveals What Is in Our Hearts (NYT)

To come out of this pandemic better than we went in, we must let ourselves be touched by others’ pain...

des. 6, 2020, 11:25pm

>24 John5918: not relevant to this thread

Dershowitz said “clearly state legislatures have the power before the voters vote, to pick the electors.”

“The unanswered constitutional question is do they have the power, state legislatures, to pick electors, after the voters vote, after they conclude that the voters count has been in some way fraudulent or wrong,” he said.

“There certainly is probable cause for investigating and looking further,” he said. “Guiliani has made very serious accusations. The question is, which institution is designed, constitutionally, to look into it. Is it the state legislature? Is it the courts? Is the clock running in such a way that there won't be time to look into this?”

“We know the media doesn't give it a fair shake and we know that everybody else is partisan,” he said. “The American public wants to know, is Guiliani correct or isn't he correct? I don't know whether we'll find that out in time for the meeting of the Electoral College votes” on Dec. 14.


des. 6, 2020, 11:28pm

Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe said Sunday it’s yet to be decided if there’ll be a Biden administration.

“Essentially we had universal mail-in balloting across this country in a way we hadn't seen before and to that point, almost 73% of the American people this year voted before Election Day, a good percentage of those, by mail,” he said.

“That's about an 80% increase over anything we've ever seen before, so it's little wonder that we see what's happening around the country as a result of that, with mail-in balloting and all of the questions —and the questions that are being raised in lawsuits and by everyday Americans about what happened in the election.

Ratcliffe praised the nation’s intelligence community and the way it addressed problems from foreign interference “that we saw in 2016.”

“But people need to understand that's different than election fraud issues — things like postal drivers saying they took 200,000-plus ballots from New York to Pennsylvania. Tens of thousands of ballots supposedly mailed in, but no folds or creases in them. More votes than ballots issued in places. People pulling out suitcases and video evidence of that with questionable explanations for that. Those are issues of election fraud that need to be investigated and there's a lot of them and it's not just one person or one group of people. It's across the country.”


des. 6, 2020, 11:29pm

>4 Earthling1: I see; Trump's 306 electoral votes were a landslide, but Biden's 306 electoral votes is not decisive.

>13 Earthling1: Did you read the article you posted in >1 Earthling1:? The one that says "All but a couple of states have directed that all of their electoral votes will go to the candidate with the greater number of statewide votes."?

Also, it's recent, but Chiafalo et al. v. Washington (2020) says that states can stop electors from voting for someone other than the candidate that won the local election.

>1 Earthling1: The question is, what happens if legislators decide they cannot say with confidence who won the greater number of votes?

The words "sackcloth and ashes" comes to mind. They certainly shouldn't get to pick the electors if they're so incompetent as to be unable to run an election, especially as that increases the incentive to lie.

Biden was predicted to win the election, and the polls were reasonably accurate. If there was an actual question, that would be one thing, but Biden won all the states he was predicted to, and that alone put him over 269 electoral votes. Even if you can convince Georgia and Pennsylvania to throw the election, Biden still wins. It doesn't say much for American democracy that people are still fighting.

des. 6, 2020, 11:33pm

"Trump’s New Director of National Intelligence Doesn’t Understand His Job: John Ratcliffe, a Trump loyalist without intelligence experience, sees his job as helping the president and undermining the intelligence community." (July 2020)

des. 6, 2020, 11:40pm

>25 Earthling1: not relevant to this thread

Indeed. Have you noticed how LT threads often have posts which are deemed "irrelevant" by some posters because other posters think they might be an interesting and relevant contribution to the conversation? Have you noticed how in real life conversations often veer in odd directions? But my apologies to anyone who thinks I am derailing this thread by a single random post which nobody has to pay attention to or respond to.

des. 6, 2020, 11:46pm

Then delete it.

des. 6, 2020, 11:49pm

>30 Earthling1:

Why? Maybe someone else is interested in it, including the person whose post I was responding to. You can ignore it if you don't like it.

des. 6, 2020, 11:50pm

>25 Earthling1: Dershowitz is an idiot. State legislatures are bound by state law. Arizona's constitution is entirely clear, the winner of the vote wins the election. I haven't checked other states, but I imagine they actually have laws regulating the election, and if I were a lawyer being published, I'd check.

“We know the media doesn't give it a fair shake and we know that everybody else is partisan,”

That's interesting. A misquote? If everyone else is partisan, I think we should have to rely on the media to give it as close of a fair shake as they can.

>26 Earthling1: Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe

A Trump appointee who has held the position for seven months after his more qualified predecessor, Dan Coats, was fired for not being sufficiently obsequious is not a great source.

things like postal drivers saying they took 200,000-plus ballots from New York to Pennsylvania

What about the Secret Service going into Ohio post offices and shredding votes? As long as we don't have to pull out any evidence, why don't we investigate made-up claims of fraud for Trump along with made-up claims of fraud for Biden?

des. 7, 2020, 12:13am

>10 timspalding: & >20 John5918:

I didn't read the article linked, but it says that Justin Trudeau is an admirer of China?? Where does that come from? Trudeau père, perhaps, but not, I think, Trudeau fils.

Editat: des. 7, 2020, 12:53am

>32 prosfilaes: "Dershowitz is an idiot."

-- Youngest person to teach at Harvard Law.

"Dan Coats was fired"

-- No he wasn't.

"we don't have to pull out any evidence"

Will you ever get one thing right?

Editat: des. 7, 2020, 1:21am

>34 Earthling1: youngest person to teach at Harvard Law

Earthling, you might remember that in another thread you stated unequivocally that all journalists are stupid. When I responded with examples of the academic qualifications of a number of well-known journalists, you dismissed this as a claim to "authority". Someone now calls a named individual (not a whole class of people) an idiot based on a concrete example of something he said; you respond with a claim to academic "authority", that he is the youngest person to teach at Harvard Law. A slight inconsistency here, perhaps?

des. 7, 2020, 1:57am

#35......b-b-b-b-bu-bu-but i--i-i-it-it's-b-b-but-it's Harvard. I didn't know Earthling was such an elitist.

You know how some people on the right claim to be an American first-ist? Dershowitz claims to be an Israeli-first-ist. Dershowitz doesn't give a shit about Americans dying of Covid or our Covid economy. All's he wants to see is the Palestinians being driven out of the West Bank by brute force though the closing of Epstein's fantasy island did hurt his love life.

des. 7, 2020, 2:13am

>34 Earthling1: Youngest person to teach at Harvard Law.

Even if true, it is really irrelevant to my point. Very intelligent people can be idiots; a phrase Dershowitz used was "ignoramuses with PhDs". It's not a simple question of federal law; any question about what state governmental officials can do has to refer to state law. It is just one of several recent cases where Dershowitz seems to be loud and careless.

No he wasn't.

On another thread, I said The media shouldn't hesitate to call a lie a lie. and you said Bullshit victorian do-gooder elitist racist paternalism. I stand by what I said about Dan Coats; I could look up a cite, but don't see any evidence that a cite could exist that you would accept.

des. 7, 2020, 7:50am

Resigned. Not fired.

"In his resignation letter, dated July 28, Coats, 76..."


des. 7, 2020, 7:51am

"really irrelevant to my point. "

Don't call him an idiot. That's stupid.

Editat: des. 7, 2020, 7:55am

>31 John5918: Don't hijack the thread. Management has already threatened to ban me if I start any more threads on this topic. So let me have one, OK? Or do you despise freedom that much?

des. 7, 2020, 8:00am

>37 prosfilaes: You want the press to think for you. You want politicians to take care of you. Substitute daddy. Nanny state. Victorian paternalism was also racist. It might have been fine for timid Brits. But not us.

You hate freedom. I love it.

des. 7, 2020, 8:03am

>40 Earthling1:

Posting one post which you consider to be irrelevant does not constitute hijacking your thread.

des. 7, 2020, 8:12am

Yes it does.

Editat: des. 7, 2020, 9:10am

No, it doesn’t.

If you don’t care to have others respond as they wish, you can find another corner and not invite anyone into it and have your mumbly monologue with yourself.

Or do you despise freedom that much?

des. 7, 2020, 9:44am

>6 John5918: You were at Notre Dame U a while back--you must have been introduced to "Touchdown Jesus"? (Wiki will explain, if not.) Football almost rivals Catholicism in our parts. Devout RCs root for Notre Dame--except for one priest whose dad was a prof at U Michigan, and so was torn.

Then there's baseball. When Tom Monahan (Domino's Pizza, Ave Maria Law School, etc.) owned the Detroit Tigers, there were aways nuns in habits and others one would recognize at the games. My son, then in parochial school, played the national anthem before one game. :)

des. 7, 2020, 10:01am

>44 2wonderY: Imitation again. Jesus. Is that all you people can do? Mock, ridicule, insult, turn tables

echo echo echo

No wonder you want daddy politics.

des. 7, 2020, 10:02am

>45 margd: Don't hijack the thread!

des. 7, 2020, 10:06am

>45 margd: Touchdown Jesus

I have to confess I had forgotten! But when I looked it up and saw a photo, I remembered it right enough.

des. 7, 2020, 10:06am

>44 2wonderY: Don't hijack the thread

des. 7, 2020, 10:20am

I suggest we follow the request in >40 Earthling1:

Editat: des. 7, 2020, 10:23am

>50 bohemima:

With all due respect to both you and >40 Earthling1:, the easiest way to get a thread back on topic is to post material relevant to the thread rather than to create a red herring arguing about whether or not it is on topic. That red herring is definitely not on topic.

des. 7, 2020, 11:13am

>45 margd: Wow, all this football talk. I have to confess I never understood football. It was really embarrassing in high school when my school paper asked me to take pictures of a game and I realized I had no idea what would be interesting. So I got some really good shots of people doing interesting things... turned out, I got lots of great shots of the other team making our team look really lousy.

But it turned out okay, apparently there were no opportunities to make our team look good. We were not a "football powerhouse" sort of school.

des. 7, 2020, 12:34pm

Grammar Nazi AND Thread Nazi? Can one person wear this many stahlhelms?

des. 7, 2020, 12:39pm

>53 Limelite: Let's stay on topic. This thread is about football. (or at least, that's what I'm getting from the title, and the non-blocked posts)

des. 7, 2020, 1:00pm


des. 7, 2020, 2:47pm

>53 Limelite: The daily personal attack.

des. 7, 2020, 2:57pm

Who else thinks, "It's all about me!"?

des. 7, 2020, 3:11pm

>57 Limelite: I don't think it's all about you.

des. 7, 2020, 3:16pm

LoL! No?

des. 7, 2020, 3:26pm

Unless your name is Benjamin, that is. Then it's partly about you.

des. 7, 2020, 8:04pm

>38 Earthling1: "In his resignation letter, dated July 28, Coats, 76..."

A letter you've personally examined and verified? A letter that you know that CBS personally examined or verified? Or is it okay for CBS to state things as facts that you approve of?

Note that people who resign from a position like that are often effectively fired. But at least we're bringing evidence to the table.

>41 Earthling1: You want the press to think for you.

If that's what it's about, stop trying to think for me and start making all your statements as wishy-washy as possible. That'll all make us more free.

In a free country, the media can consort itself largely as it will. It's not more free if the media has to consort itself to your dictates, nor if it is prohibited from providing me the news in the style and fashion which I appreciate. And it's not about having the press think for me; it's about having the press avoid feeding me bullshit out of some misguided desire of fairness over truth. They should be accepting of uncertainty and reasonably careful about their claims, but that doesn't mean they should avoid the truth for the sake of it.

You want politicians to take care of you.

We note all those Republicans in the streets demanding "Defund the police!". It'd be more convincing if Republicans didn't seem to be more about getting politicians to take care of them.

des. 7, 2020, 9:07pm

>61 prosfilaes: Utter bullshit. You are not arguing in good faith. I gave you a source that you would accept, after you carried on and on, and you played games with it rather than admit you were wrong. I'm done with that subject, and don't hijack the thread. The facts are undisputed. Next time, choose your words more carefully before you take me on. For me, this forum is like shooting fish in a barrel.

des. 7, 2020, 9:09pm

"We note all those Republicans in the streets demanding "Defund the police!""

You mean Democrats. They are the ones saying that. I don't know of any Republicans stupid enough to say such a thing. Don't hijack the thread.

des. 7, 2020, 10:24pm

Full of grace.

Editat: des. 8, 2020, 7:21pm

Aquest missatge ha estat suprimit pel seu autor.

des. 8, 2020, 12:20am

>62 Earthling1: I gave you a source that you would accept,

What about a source you would accept? It is playing games to deny the validity of a source and then use it in an argument.

You posted a huge theory about the media, which is much more interesting than more lies about the election from Trump aficionados.

In >32 prosfilaes:, I said that "A Trump appointee who has held the position for seven months after his more qualified predecessor, Dan Coats, was fired for not being sufficiently obsequious is not a great source." Even if we changed "was fired for not being sufficiently obsequious" to "resigned after publicly disagreeing with the President on several occasions", what difference does it make? I could have left out the part about Dan Coats in total; he's a recent Trump appointee.

For me, this forum is like shooting fish in a barrel.

It's easy to win if you do your own scoring.

>63 Earthling1: So you're admitting it's the Republicans who want the nanny state. That's what the police are; people politicians send to take care of you, or more pejoratively, to take your words, substitute daddies, racist Victorian paternalism.

Don't hijack the thread.

Why don't you follow the thread? You've nitpicked, but you've never responded to the heart of basically any of the replies. How about >32 prosfilaes: "State legislatures are bound by state law.", meaning that havering about the US Constitution is mostly irrelevant? Or also >32 prosfilaes: where I basically said "postal drivers saying they took 200,000-plus ballots from New York to Pennsylvania" is bullshit, which you declined to respond to. Or >15 Limelite: "Biden won the Electoral College yesterday when CA certified its election and it's 55 Electors are committed to Sleepy Joe, who didn't have to open his eyes to beat Trump and capture 279 EC votes on Friday." which you rudely claimed >16 Earthling1: "You don't know how the electoral college works. You might want to look into it and prepare yourself for a very big fall.", but didn't bother to explain. Enough states have certified their elections that 279 electoral college votes have been sealed for Biden, and >27 prosfilaes: I pointed out that the Supreme Court doesn't demand those states let electors vote for who they want, and historically they've almost always voted for the person they were sent there to vote for.

But you'd rather nitpick, rather than respond.

Editat: des. 8, 2020, 1:36am

>65 Earthling1: But when the delegate votes are actually opened, certified by Congress, and counted – and that's when we have a president elect is Jan. 6."

See, I'd say we had a president elect on November 3rd, but we just didn't know who. The votes were cast, the people had spoken, and all that was left was the revealing. But Trump and Co. seem to think it's okay to void out the elector's vote after they vote on December 16th. Why does January 6th matter? There's another two weeks before the inauguration; it seems like as arbitrary a day as any. You don't become President-Elect because Congress counts the votes; you become President-Elect because you were elected to be President by the voters.

Again, for all this bullshit about the legislature picking the electors, see this Nevada news article. Nevada passed a law saying electors must vote for the winner of the popular vote. I don't know about other states, but going on about what the Supreme Court could do or what the US Constitution could do misses the key point that we're talking about state actors bound by state law, first and foremost.

Editat: des. 8, 2020, 2:11am

>67 prosfilaes: But when the delegate votes are actually opened, certified by Congress, and counted – and that's when we have a president elect is Jan. 6.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Let's just shoot this one in the head right now. I see this is a quote from the utterly gormless Jenna Ellis. Since in addition to being a lying sack of shit, she's an absolute idiot and incapable of an original thought, I'm going to assume that she was handed this lie by some other liar, and that it's therefore a talking point that someone wants to insert in the brains of the sort of imbeciles who read NewsMax. (and this is apparently working, since it's appearing in NewsMax)

I just did a search, and there are over 200 articles published just by the New York Times in the months of November and December 2016 which include the phrase "President-elect Trump". I've got $100 for the first person who can point me to even one complaint from any of the people trying to sell this particular talking point, objecting to the premature designation of Dickless Donald as the "President-elect".

If it's a principle now, it was a principle then. Who's going to pick up this easy money and show me that these people didn't just pull this out of their ass?

Answer: nobody, because they never thought this until some time this week. Which is completely obvious, so why is anyone parroting such inane bullshit? The answer to that one is left as an exercise for the reader.

des. 8, 2020, 6:53am

Politicians largely take care of themselves. But speaking of that no one ever has made such a mockery of the emoluments clause as the present resident of the White House. His four years in office has all been about enriching himself, his businesses, his family and to lesser degree his friends. He's like a bloated Boris Yeltsin on human growth steroids. He's got an entire hotel full of Saudi Arabian plutocrats and oligarchs. He directs govt. contracts his own way and directs donor and diplomatic traffic into his hotels and golf resorts. He's an unconscionable piece of shit whose major concerns of all are his bank account and greedy, lascivious, venal and gluttonous lifestyle.

des. 8, 2020, 11:49am

See post 1

des. 8, 2020, 12:20pm

#70--who would have thunk it? Again we're in agreement. There is something really wrong with this slob. His bloated face and body--the unnatural coloring of his skin and hair--the dead eyes all attesting to someone who has absolutely lost his way or sold his soul to some dark entity.

des. 8, 2020, 12:42pm

To all my friends whose noggins are bruised from butting their heads against the Great Wall of Denial (built w/o any contributions from MX), please know that conservative nut jobs -- and I include our own examples of this species -- have no sense of humor and think irony is the opposite of wrinkly.

Save your breath and behave as if there's no there there. because there isn't.

Let's talk about whatever naturally arises from our discussions and points in this thread, rather than talk to the wall.

Speaking of La Ellis, Queen of the "Elite Strike Force," she's another victim of the extended Rose Garden Massacre. Positive for Covid-19, following in Trump's and Julie Annie's footsteps after spending so much time licking his and Trump's boots.

des. 8, 2020, 3:27pm

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dan-coats-resigning-director-of-national-intelligen... (previously linked)

Earlier this month Coats announced the creation of a new senior-level position to coordinate election security efforts across the intelligence community. Known as the election threats executive, the new position is responsible for coordinating "all election security activities, initiatives, and programs."

The president's tweet ended months of speculation that Mr. Coats would either soon depart or be ousted from his role. Though he was among the longest-serving national security officials in the president's cabinet, Coats' public statements on behalf of the intelligence community occasionally ran contrary to Mr. Trump's preferred policy outcomes, stoking the president's ire.

des. 8, 2020, 7:23pm

"Justice Ginsburg recognized in Bush v. Gore that the date of ‘ultimate significance’ is Jan. 6, when Congress counts and certifies the votes of the Electoral College,” they said in a statement, the news outlet reported.

“The only fixed day in the U.S. Constitution is the inauguration of the president on Jan. 20 at noon.”

Ellis reiterated that message on Fox Business’ “Mornings With Maria.”

"Although we have the safe harbor deadline today, and we have the meeting of the Electoral College next week on Dec. 14, the ultimate date of significance is Jan. 6,” she maintained.


des. 8, 2020, 7:24pm

>73 aspirit: That's been settled. You are repeating a link and adding no new information. Dan Coats resigned. He wasn't fired.

des. 8, 2020, 8:01pm

>68 kiparsky: If it's a principle now, it was a principle then.

Yeah. I can see differences in a contested election, but the whining is simply out of proportion, and there's no care. As I said, we have a President-elect when the last vote has been casted, but the Trumpites seem to want to have the legislatures or Congress or the courts elect the President.

As I said in https://www.librarything.com/topic/326001#7336399 , part of the frustrating thing is a lack of principles. That was an attack on the media that combined false claims about stuff being new in the Trump era with fairly postmodern* expectations. I'm fine with arguments about how media should present itself, but it doesn't feel like Earthling1 wants the media to be more indecisive, just that they should stop arguing with Trump.

* I'm really tired of "modern", "postmodern", "new", "neo-" names for stuff. Postmodernism was falling out of vogue when I was born. The modernism it refers to is counted as mostly done by WWII.

des. 8, 2020, 9:45pm

>76 prosfilaes: You don't know how our elections work. Most people don't. Including the candidates.

des. 9, 2020, 2:14am

>77 Earthling1: Right; the media has to twist themselves into knots to avoid claiming things are facts, but you can just contradict people with no explanation. You don't know how discussions or arguments work.

As was pointed out, nobody complained when Trump was called President-elect in November of 2016. The only example since the inauguration started happening in January of someone not being declared President-elect relatively quickly was 2000, when Gore finally conceded on Dec. 13th. There's no precedent for Congress rejecting elector votes properly sent by the states. Tilden v. Hayes presented Congress with a mess; so far, Congress is only getting one set of votes from each state.

I doubt anyone truly knows how our elections work, and I'm sure you don't. In what states can police be at polls? Which states officially bind electors to vote for the winner of the popular vote? There's 50 states of rules, plus counties and municipalities.

But for the general points, I see no reason to doubt my knowledge, and you certainly don't offer any reason.

des. 9, 2020, 2:16am

"I'm sure you don't."
Wrong. I do know.

des. 9, 2020, 2:17am

"I see no reason to doubt my knowledge"
That's the problem. Closed mind.

des. 9, 2020, 2:19am

"You don't know how discussions or arguments work."

Wrong again. Don't assume I am in any way obligated to debate you or talk to you.

Stop hijacking the thread. That is step one.

des. 9, 2020, 10:26am

>78 prosfilaes: There's 50 states of rules, plus counties and municipalities.

Plus some overarching federal legislation governing the allowable practices, plus the language about elections in the Constitution, yes. It's certainly true that nobody in this country can cite, off-hand, the specific regulations governing elections in every locality in the US. However, I think it's a bit much to say that nobody "truly knows how our elections work". Local elections workers generally know the regulations governing their local elections down to an amazingly fine degree of detail, and there are many students of political science, lawyers, and campaign workers who know the ins and outs of election laws well enough to talk sensibly and correctly about elections in all fifty states. Lots of people know how our elections work. It's not easy, and it takes a lot of work to know this stuff and to keep your knowledge current, but people do hard things all the time. And the people who do those hard things are called "experts" and as you clearly know, when someone gives proof of expertise, it's worth listening to that person's views.

That being said, it's pretty safe to say that anyone who has not figured out by now that the 2020 Presidential election is over and was won by the Biden/Harris ticket cannot be said to have given any proof of expertise on the subject of US elections.

des. 9, 2020, 11:21am

It's not hard to understand. But you have to like learning, you have to want to learn, you have to have an open mind that is OK with change. That rules out most of the people on this web site.

des. 9, 2020, 7:21pm

>81 Earthling1: Don't assume I am in any way obligated to debate you or talk to you.

Stop hijacking the thread.

So how about those Steelers, eh? I'm sure they don't grossly violate the expectations of a discussion thread and then demand the other side follow their version of one of those expectations. I've seen their football games*, and they generally play by the same rules and rough understandings of their opponents.

* No, I haven't.

des. 10, 2020, 11:00am

Might be worth reading about the electoral process in another polarised country "facing insecurity, political tensions and administrative delays", where if "the losing party does not accept the results, the dispute could trigger a political and institutional crisis that armed groups, in turn, might exploit in order to further undermine the state."

Managing Election Tensions in the Central African Republic (International Crisis Group)

In the Central African Republic, the smooth conduct of the December 2020 elections will be essential for the country's stability. The government and opposition should ease tensions, international partners should support credible elections and regional actors should encourage armed groups to abstain from violence during the electoral period...

des. 10, 2020, 10:42pm

Africa has no relevance to the American election. Don't hijack the thread.

des. 12, 2020, 11:28pm

We Don't Need SCOTUS to Win
By James Arlandson

The Texas suit, later joined by other states, against Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Georgia, was a nice try, but it was always a long shot. Of course SCOTUS would be reluctant to grab so much power by ordering state legislatures to seat the right electors. Why? Because the power is already in the hands of the legislatures to do this.

Though we are non-lawyers, let's read these laws together, interpreting them minimally and plainly (something lawyers seem incapable of doing). The first federal law for our purposes, titled "Determination of controversy as to appointment of electors," says:

If any State shall have provided, by laws enacted prior to the day fixed for the appointment of the electors, for its final determination of any controversy or contest concerning the appointment of all or any of the electors of such State, by judicial or other methods or procedures, and such determination shall have been made at least six days before the time fixed for the meeting of the electors, such determination made pursuant to such law so existing on said day, and made at least six days prior to said time of meeting of the electors, shall be conclusive, and shall govern in the counting of the electoral votes as provided in the Constitution, and as hereinafter regulated, so far as the ascertainment of the electors appointed by such State is concerned.

So this provision, if I understand it correctly, says that states may appoint electors after a controversy ("controversy or contest"). Now, what happens when fraud and illegalities are so egregious that they help one candidate exclusively and harm only one candidate in such a way that it is unclear which electors shall be appointed? That definitely qualifies to become a "controversy or contest." The provision opens the door to each state legislature having the right to determine how the state can appoint electors ("appointment of electors" and "ascertainment of electors"). (This is already clear in the Twelfth Amendment, but here this provision gives more clarity after a controversy.) Bottom line: The electors for Biden, the "fake winner," can be set aside if that is what each individual state law allows.

What does each state law say? It's up to them to tell us, because researching each state's law is too burdensome for average citizens.

But it is safe to assume that the states have "plenary power" to appoint the electors of their choosing, particularly when the Constitution actually says the state legislatures determine things. The Electors Clause — Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution — provides that

"each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress."

However, what about the "six days" in the election law provision? The next federal law, in a section titled "failure to make a choice before prescribed day," says:

Whenever any State has held an election for the purpose of choosing electors, and has failed to make a choice on the day prescribed by law, the electors may be appointed on a subsequent day in such a manner as the legislature of such State may direct.

The states can determine when they appoint the electors "on a subsequent day" (not the next day). The phrase "In such a manner as the legislature of such State may direct" gives the states much leeway to select the right electors, which agrees with the Electors Clause, cited above. And if the controversy in selecting electors, caused by fraud and illegalities, persists past Dec. 14, then the states can ignore the date and follow their need to further investigate fraud and illegalities.

The whole thing can work out like this, apart from the Texas lawsuit before SCOTUS.

The undisputed states vote electorally on Dec. 14, and neither Biden nor Trump reaches 270, so neither one is the winner. The five GOP state legislatures (Arizona, Michigan, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania) of the six disputed states (minus Nevada) say they need to postpone their electoral votes because they are investigating fraud and illegalities. The legislatures perform due diligence (they have been holding hearings to collect the evidence) and conclude that fraud and illegalities unilaterally hurt Trump and helped only Biden.

Assuming that the Democrat Legislature in Nevada says everything was legitimate, each disputed GOP state may reach this conclusion on any day after Dec. 14 — say, on Dec. 27 or even Jan. 15. Then they appoint electors who vote for the rightful winner: Trump (provided the GOP-selected electors do not suffer from TDS). These votes are added in to the votes cast on Dec. 14. Trump goes past 270 electoral votes. He wins!

What happens if the disputed states cannot select the electors, and neither Trump or Biden reaches 270?

Then it goes to the House of Representatives, and each state has one vote, and this one vote is determined by the political makeup of the state legislatures.

The GOP controls 29 state legislatures, and the Democrats have 19 (two are split). Trump wins again.

Therefore, we don't need SCOTUS to win, and we never needed it.


Editat: des. 13, 2020, 1:59am

>87 Earthling1:

I find it tedious, worrying and in a way fascinating to see the contortions which the right wing is going through to try to overturn the will of the US electorate. It says something about which party actually believes in democracy and which one wants power at all costs. The slogan "Stop the Steal" could more aptly be applied to the Republican party's current antics.

states may appoint electors after a controversy ("controversy or contest"). Now, what happens when fraud and illegalities are so egregious that they help one candidate exclusively and harm only one candidate in such a way that it is unclear which electors shall be appointed...

"Controversy or contest" only because one party refuses to accept the obvious."Fraud and illegalities are so egregious" that no credible evidence of such has been presented to any court or electoral authority, which taken as a whole can be considered relatively objective as, apart from the fact that their job is to uphold the law impartially, they include both Republicans and Democrats. They have done this in the face of pressure and threats by the outgoing president and his followers. The 2020 election has probably been more closely scrutinised, monitored and supervised than any previous election. All audits and recounts demanded by the losing party have resulted in no significant change from the original result. Unlike in 2016, the 2020 winning candidate was widely predicted by opinion polls and exit polls, and won a significant majority of the popular vote as well as the electoral college. The phrase flogging a dead horse comes to mind, but more worrying not only for the USA but for the world is the blatant right wing attempt to undermine confidence in democracy. For a country that aspires to be the "leader of the free world" (and is still looked up to by many who are suffering under authoritarian regimes elsewhere) it might be worth reflecting on what "free" actually means in terms of democracy and governance.

des. 13, 2020, 2:17am

#88--Michigan goes to Biden by about 150,000 votes---that's a clear win that does not need to be contested. Pennsylvania goes to Biden by about 45,000 votes---closer but still pretty clear. Wisconsin also goes to Biden--Team Trump gets a recount and loses and then asks for a recount just on Milwaukee and Dane Counties (and by the way they're stiffing Wisconsin out of the $3 mil they owe for that which with all the money they've raised to keep their shit going makes you wonder what's going on with that---most likely straight into Donald's pocket) and lose again--actually increase Biden's lead. Georgia is very narrowly Biden by 12,000 votes and what amounts to 3 recounts have been done and Donald has lost every time.

They insist there have been illegal votes but yet haven't got any proof. Was there a minimal amount of illegal voting done in this years election? Probably--like any other election there were maybe a few hundred or few thousand nation wide who cast illegal ballots--or really not enough to change anything. Would they all be cast in Biden's favor? Absolutely not. But that's also part of the narrative. If you voted for Trump your vote was good--if you voted for Biden your vote was suspect. Donald got 2.9 million less voters in 2016. This time he lost by over 7 million. The math isn't hard unless someone is a dunce and/or a narrow minded partisan who believes every word that comes dripping out of Trump's mouth.

des. 13, 2020, 4:13am

"In a so-called canvass of the county’s results, in which election officials check the vote counts against other voting records, officials found 936 discrepancies, or less than 0.1 percent of the 974,185 votes in Clark County. That rate will not affect the president’s deficit of more than 33,000 votes in Nevada. President Trump’s statewide deficit is smaller than his gap in Clark County because he won Nevada’s rural counties.

Clark County commissioners voted on Monday to certify the results of all of the county’s elections except one: a race for the county commission seat that represents District C, an area with 332,000 residents that includes parts of Las Vegas. The margin in that race was just 10 votes. In that district, election officials found 139 discrepancies, in line with the .09 percent rate of discrepancies to votes countywide. The county commission called for a special election." https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/technology/no-trump-did-not-win-in-nevada.htm...

"Gloria did identify six people who were recorded as voting twice, but he emphasized that even that isn’t clearly because of fraud." https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/11/17/trump-allies-launch-yet-anoth...

So in Nevada the commissioners called for a revote in a vote where one person won by 10 votes, because there were 936 discrepancies out of 974,185 votes, and six people recorded as voting twice. So, yeah, the voting system is not perfect, but Biden won by 33,000 votes, and the discrepancies aren't even close to that. I suspect the rest of the US looks quite similar.

des. 13, 2020, 11:57am

"overturn the will of the US electorate."


des. 13, 2020, 11:58am

" "Stop the Steal" could more aptly be applied to the Republican party's current antics."
turning tables

des. 13, 2020, 11:58am

" no credible evidence of such has been presented to any court or electoral authority"


des. 13, 2020, 11:59am

"relatively objective"

des. 13, 2020, 11:59am

"pressure and threats by the outgoing president and his followers."


des. 13, 2020, 11:59am

"2020 election has probably been more closely scrutinised, monitored and supervised than any previous election"


des. 13, 2020, 12:00pm

"All audits and recounts demanded by the losing party have resulted in no significant change from the original result"


des. 13, 2020, 12:00pm

"right wing attempt to undermine confidence in democracy"


des. 13, 2020, 12:01pm

" Unlike in 2016, the 2020 winning candidate was widely predicted by opinion polls and exit polls"


des. 13, 2020, 12:01pm

"leader of the free world"


des. 13, 2020, 12:02pm

"one party refuses to accept the obvious"


des. 13, 2020, 12:03pm

"aven't got any proof"


des. 13, 2020, 12:04pm

"the discrepancies aren't even close to that. I suspect the rest of the US looks quite similar."


des. 13, 2020, 12:04pm

"It says something about which party actually believes in democracy and which one wants power at all costs."


des. 13, 2020, 12:05pm

"voting system is not perfect"


des. 13, 2020, 12:05pm

"Biden won by 33,000 votes"


des. 13, 2020, 12:06pm

des. 13, 2020, 12:13pm

Cleanup in aisle 5. Bring a big mop, please.

des. 13, 2020, 12:14pm

yep, it's a shitty forum, isn't it?

des. 13, 2020, 12:18pm

#91 through 107---I'm sure all of this is earth shattering but I'm not getting any of it. Basically 17 straight posts from you in 9 minutes or so tells me you're just deliberately trying to be a nuisance.

des. 13, 2020, 1:21pm

>108 2wonderY:

It's quite the pool of sad, bitter conservative tears, isn't it?

>110 lriley:

I have this member blocked, but 17 posts in 9 minutes also implies not much thought went into the production of the posts.

Editat: des. 13, 2020, 1:36pm

>110 lriley:, >111 MsMixte:

And most of those posts really says anything except "bullshit". It would be nice if there were some semblance of a conversation, or perhaps if a poster were to try to explain why they think something is "bullshit". But I'm not holding my breath.

des. 13, 2020, 1:35pm

>110 lriley: and >111 MsMixte: - FYI just a quick summary of the 17 (+1) - note these words are direct quotes from same:
bullshit - count - 12
true - count - 3
turning tables - count - 1
the who - count - 1
yep, it's a shitty forum, isn't it? - count - 1

des. 13, 2020, 2:28pm

>110 lriley: I actually got curious enough to look at the first like three or for of that spate, because I was wondering what on earth was going on. Then I stopped when I realized that they were all the same post. Did I miss anything?

From >113 alco261:'s summary it sounds like the answer is is no...

Editat: des. 13, 2020, 2:59pm

I can explain every one of my posts. Every word. I wonder how many people on the internet can say that. It's your loss if you don't want to read, not mine. But don’t call me a troll. You know better than that. The truth will pass you like a train, and you will miss it.

des. 13, 2020, 3:01pm

>112 John5918: I have already annihilated your points. You weren't paying attention. I've given you links, too. You either don't read them or don't understand them. I can only do so much.

des. 13, 2020, 3:03pm

>114 kiparsky:

You don't miss a thing!

des. 13, 2020, 3:20pm

Stupid Conservatives Can't Do Math

So they don't believe in it; same reason they reject science and any subject that involves logical reasoning ability and the comprehension of complex problems requiring nuance.

Stupid conservatives are good at whining, violence, and conspiracy theorizing in their efforts to make reality go away. No wonder they only have "thoughts and prayers" to offer America in the face of the suffering and problems that are outgrowths of Trump and his Administration's failures.

Stupid conservatives seek refuge in delusional fantasies when they created problems they can't bully their way out of. Here's the Prime Example of Republican/Conservative Stupidity -- TX AG Paxton.

Wait! There's more.

Here's the secondary Prime Prime Example -- Sydney "Kraken" Powell.
“It’s extremely unsettling to know that American elections have been just as rigged as elections in Third World countries,” Powell complained. “I’m sure the CIA has been involved in any number of those activities, if not here and other places around the world.”

“It may have been the CIA that created this software and programs to begin with,” she said, “and then exported them for their own use only to have it come back to us.”

“It could be that very important, powerful, extremely wealthy people were involved in rigging this election. It’s globalists’ interests. I mean, frankly, everyone in the world except for the millions of Americans that wanted to elect Donald Trump to clean us the swamp and drain the swamp want this world to continue the way it was with them having all the power and working behind the scenes to rig elections and everything else.

“It’s massive,” she added. “I’m sure the media companies are involved in it too.”
OMG !! THE WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD IS NOW INVOLVED IN STEALING THE ELECTION FROM THE ORANGE SHITEGIBBON!!!!! Crackpot is inadequate for describing this actual bullshit.

So much easier than math.

Editat: des. 13, 2020, 4:14pm

If you want to turn over a new leaf, you can start by ignoring that dumb web site.

Yes, echo again, turning the tables? You see? I say bullshit, you say bullshit. Get it? You think that's clever? You think intelligent people make up childish nicknames and put them in bold type? It's so dumb, I'm embarrassed for you.

des. 13, 2020, 5:01pm

Barney gonna Barney

des. 13, 2020, 5:13pm

The "website" didn't say any of those "dumb" things.
Sydney "Kraken" Powell said all of those dumb things to "Dim Bulb" Mike Huckabee on "True Believers TV," aka TBN. She's the Dumb. Don't you watch that show? How else can you keep your mind free of liberal media manipulation?

And here's Dumber. Trump lawyer, Lin L. Wood adds Canada to the list of thousands trying to steal the election from Trump. He's so dumb, even Huckabee didn't have him on TV. Wood Head is just another Twidiot, like Trump.
CCP & 1000’s of US citizens worked together to try to steal 2020 election at top of ticket & selected down ballot races. Serbia, Canada, Venezuela, Cuba, CIA, George Soros, Bill Gates, Biden, Clinton Foundation & many national state & local officials from both parties involved.

(@LLinWood) December 13, 2020


What's the problem -- they're telling the truth aren't they? I mean, who needs evidence? Just say so and it's gotta be true, if you're a RWNJ. After all, Kraken Kween and Wood Head are merely Trump's echobots, too. Admittedly, Kraken Kween needs more tinfoil. She seems unaware of the real size of the conspiracy.

des. 13, 2020, 5:41pm

I would think it's about time to start thinking about disbarring some lawyers namely Giuliani, Powell, DiGenova, Paxton and Wood and warning a few others. To be clear these are waste of time lawsuits that give hope to a bunch of blockheads where there is none. The only one of them who actually thinks they should bring evidence seems to be Powell and her evidence is all being manufactured out of her insane brain. The others all seem to be at work solely to monetize the more hapless of no hoper Trump worshippers. Within 4 days the Supreme Court has given these sadsacks the middle finger twice which should tell anyone all they need to know.

des. 13, 2020, 7:09pm

>122 lriley:

"Abuse of process"(the correct legal term, I think, from reading) is difficult to prove, which is what the state bar would be required to do in order to initiate disbarment. But I don't know if the bar associations have to actually sue a bad lawyer, or if the bar just needs to present the "case" to the bad lawyer, or to a judge and that's sufficient to get rid of him. Is it done by vote of the bar, or decision of a judge?

I have no idea how broadly some of the exs. of such abuse can be defined or understood. If very narrow in interpretation, I don't know if it's even possible to win, unless some criminal law was broken by the bad lawyer.

Regardless, the question is one of torts, meaning what constitutes abuse of process can vary across the states. When it comes to abuse of process in Federal Court, I have no clue who would be legally eligible to initiate the case -- federal judges?

des. 13, 2020, 8:42pm

Two Supreme Court justices were willing to hear the case because it has merit. Whoever can't see that doesn't know the facts or doesn't ...want to know...the facts. Or both.

des. 13, 2020, 8:42pm

"Kraken Kween and Wood Head are merely Trump's echobots"

Do sane people talk this way? No. They don't.

des. 13, 2020, 8:59pm

>124 Earthling1: That is a direct lie and I suspect you know it. IN other words...


des. 13, 2020, 10:58pm

>118 Limelite: “It’s extremely unsettling to know that American elections have been just as rigged as elections in Third World countries”

Apart from the fact that the term "Third World" is not really used these days, I can attest that I have lived through several rigged elections in Africa and that this Powell person is talking nonsense. To use Earthling's words, bullshit.

>120 mikevail:

The more one reads, the more one thinks of good ol' Barney. Does anyone know whether Barney's profile page still exists on LT? I've searched but failed to find it.

Editat: des. 13, 2020, 11:02pm

>126 KAzevedo: It certainly isn't a lie. Get our facts straight.

des. 13, 2020, 11:04pm

"Powell person is talking nonsense"

Now that really is bullshit. You know nothing about her or her career. That's plain character assasination because you forbid yourself from believing anything outside your chosen sources: The Guardian, BBC, and Al Jazeera. They lead your around like a dog and you don't care. You should.

des. 13, 2020, 11:11pm

Oh, thou magnifier of trifles!

Editat: des. 13, 2020, 11:12pm

>129 Earthling1: You know nothing about her or her career.

No, but I know something about rigged elections in the "Third World". I have been involved in civic education and developing codes of conduct for elections, and also in election monitoring, as well as actually living through rigged elections. The Guardian, BBC and Al Jazeera probably covered those elections, but my experience of them is first hand, unlike, I suspect, this Powell person and her ilk whom you like to follow, dare I use your own words and say "like a dog"?

des. 14, 2020, 12:47am

"rigged elections in the "Third World"
You think there has never been cheating here?

Editat: des. 14, 2020, 12:57am

>131 John5918:

Did I say that? I'm commenting on someone called Powell whose name has been introduced into this thread and who apparently pontificates on elections in the "Third World", a subject about which I suspect she knows little (the fact that she uses the outdated term "Third World" being the first pointer) and about which I suspect I know slightly more.

des. 14, 2020, 12:59pm

In today's news, Michigan "State Rep. Gary Eisen removed from committee assignments after charged Electoral College radio interview" in which Eisen, also a firearms instructor who has previously made vague threats of violence that he later insisted were meant as "a joke", seems to equate violence in the state capital to a football throw. He said about his political plans, “I think well, I’m on a football team, we have one more play, am I going to just give up or am I going to do that hail Mary?" Also, "Will it change the outcome of the election? Probably not."

des. 14, 2020, 1:15pm

>134 aspirit: I'm just going to come out and say it: threatening violence against your political opponents is not a a "joke". It's a crime, and people who do it should be routinely investigated by their local police and/or the FBI.
Removing this fellow from his committee assignments seems insufficient, he should be removed from office, at least until he can be investigated and cleared of any criminal charges stemming from his behavior.

des. 14, 2020, 2:51pm

Yes, the right jokes about violence. The left actually commits it. So much better.

des. 14, 2020, 4:52pm

Please refer to any reliable law enforcement statistics. The vast majority of political violence is committed by people who espouse the values of the right.

The constant and consistent lying and/or denial of facts that are in the plai sight of everyone has gone beyond tiresome and into the realm of delusion.

Editat: des. 14, 2020, 5:32pm

Just this weekend we had groups like the Proud Boys marching into Washington DC like an invading occupying army. Later on that night they're engaged in street battles all over that city. They quite obviously came into town to do exactly what they did.....yet Donald is for them as well as numerous other right wing militia and/or racist and/or bigoted groups and he encourages their violence.

Editat: des. 14, 2020, 7:38pm

The electoral college voted today. It seems to be official now - Biden is the President-Elect and Orange Hitler hits the loser trail out of town on Jan. 20.

Earthling - who is yet to prove he is not actually from outer space - will S.T.F.U. now, right?


We the people will never be THAT lucky. (It's like imagining Orange Hitler showing up at the inauguration and graciously conceding.)

des. 14, 2020, 7:40pm

Also Powell is a well-known conspiracy nut. Everybody who is sane and aware of her existence knows that, without question.

Let's move on.

des. 14, 2020, 9:15pm

"vast majority of political violence is committed by people who espouse the values of the right."

Oh, my God, the derangement...

des. 14, 2020, 9:52pm

I, for one, am perfectly content that the Republicans are bent on self-destruction by tying themselves to the Conestoga wagon of delusion Trump is driving over the cliff. Heck, America is getting a two-fer.

The Evangelical movement has been changing itself into a Christian jihadist army of in-name-only Christian soldiers. Perhaps we can get some real tax reform and levy the hell out of militant organized religion. Some may think Trump has corrupted Evangelicism; I think Evangelical religion has corrupted the Republican Party. However, it doesn't really matter because the right-religio Republican Party that's left in ruins is a bunch of mad bigots who think god ordains Republican presidents.

Elections are mathematical modelings of the will of the people. You can only learn how to win the next election by analyzing the data and the numbers. Old school Republicans knew this, but the few survivors' brains are so addled by Trump Fool-Aid, they now just "believe" that the outcome they want will happen if they cheat hard enough. Because they believe Trump won -- he said so (he didn't) -- there is no incentive for them to recognize that they lost in GA and AZ because the demographics in those states changed. Without being incentivized to reality and the mathematics of the thing, the inevitable will march on and decimated them further. Math/science/truth deniers are auto-death panels.

A corrupt ideological group, when faced with the reality of rejection, goes wild in terminal denial. The only way its members can deal is by maintaining anything they don't believe about themselves and their activities is a lie. Expect violent out-breaks, expect murders, bombings, and racist hate crimes to rise even more. It will take two generations to clean out the foulness Trump has inoculated the federal government with while he's been in office.

Democrats and realist Independents are fully aware of what the Republicans are determined to pretend isn't true. They'll crunch the numbers; they'll recognize what's changed; they'll adapt. What used to be the Republican Party stopped doing that in 2016 and chose whatever Trump said to be its truth. But reality doesn't care whether you believe in it or not. It just keeps on being true.

The truth is, they just aren't making racist old white men like they used to.

des. 15, 2020, 5:15am

Just learning now about how absolutely bonkers the Washington rallies were.
A Catholic priest leading an exorcism against the forces of Trump's political enemies in the heart of Washington is not something I was quite prepared to see.

Events chronicled.

Editat: des. 15, 2020, 6:33am

>144 davidgn: The Rod Dreher article is well worth reading in full. Glad to know some speakers on the right are holding on to sanity. But a full narrative of the rally from his perspective is eye opening. Yikes!

des. 15, 2020, 8:11am

#144 + 145---I'm wondering if these good folks had anything to say about the pandemic or whether that was just a hoax or an afterthought. For those who want to go all biblical plagues are usually signs from the Almighty are they not?

Over 300,000 dead and hospitals around the country overwhelmed and it doesn't seem to connect to these mostly maskless crowds of shouting and screaming people.

Inasmuch as Donald Trump may have any real religious beliefs at all it's pretty much through charlatans like Paula White and their prosperity theology bullshit beliefs which is very much at odds with the path that the New Testament's Jesus took. It's a kind of 'square the circle' theology that allows the wealthy to continue to lord it over the poor but still feel good about themselves. In this version it's pretty much proto-capitalism masquerading as religion. The attainment of wealth is meant to be antithetical to christian belief. In particular catholics should get that it's not the road to sanctity or sainthood.

Editat: des. 15, 2020, 8:25am

>146 lriley:

The so-called "prosperity gospel" is an abomination. Unfortunately it markets itself quite effectively to the poor, and has spread over much of Africa. It is completely at odds with Catholic teaching, and as you say, with the teaching and example of the biblical Jesus.

des. 15, 2020, 8:54am

#147--looking at it from my perspective of what real catholicism is meant to be prosperity theology should be condemned as a heresy.

Editat: des. 15, 2020, 9:48pm


Real catholicism is the torture and murder of any opposition, who were generally either referred to as infidels or heretics - and also it was many huge crusades of fanatics to foreign lands to mass murder hundreds of thousands of "infidels" - in a nutshell: religious correctness at the point of a sword/immolation in fire.

Luckily the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic church" is prevented these days, by many factors, from practicing "real" catholicism.

Thank Buddha, Allah, and Jebus for that.

des. 15, 2020, 11:01pm

>144 davidgn: & >145 2wonderY:

Information left out of Dreher's article — which I agree is well worth reading in its entirety — is the size of the Washington march. How did it compare, for example, with the 2017 Inauguration?

des. 15, 2020, 11:14pm

"Hey-ell, Mary!"

des. 15, 2020, 11:16pm

>150 librorumamans: Best I found in a quick search:

"The Washington Post reported that permits for Saturday estimate crowds up to 15,000 in size, though noted experts think the gathering will be significantly smaller than last month's pro-Trump rally."

"thousands"; "hundreds if not thousands"

2017 Inauguration (non-demented estimate): "300,000 to 600,000"

des. 16, 2020, 12:27am

>152 davidgn:

Thanks for the figures; I had tried a brief search that didn't provide them.

While Dreher's concerns are legitimate, perhaps the modest turnout puts the threats he sees in perspective. Batshit religious fervour seems cyclical through the ages — but that's a long discussion in itself.

I will be interested to see the turnout on January 20.

des. 16, 2020, 2:04am

#151--it's a weird juxtaposition of flags--about 3 American mixed in with 20 confederate. The most common flag says 'we tried to leave the United States to become our own country' and the other 3 are saying 'yep, we're American as apple pie'. I suspect though that a lot of those with confederate flags there consider them to be all American flags now--that said what does it say when it's your 'American' flag of choice? I'm a rebel, rebel, rebel? when I don't get what I want, want, want?

You see very few people with confederate flags in the north of the country. Once in a while a car decal--once in a while the flag. Pretty much those are strange, strange people here. There is the Nazi house in Ulysses Pa. Almost no one is impressed by Nazis or Klanners and almost no one thinks living in a pre-Civil War United States would be ideal. Regional attitudes (towards a lot of things) I suppose.

des. 18, 2020, 1:04am

Rod Dreher has published a lengthy follow-up to his article on the Jericho March (>144 davidgn:), "A Defense Of Jericho March Criticism" in which he responds to some of the feedback he has received.

des. 18, 2020, 1:45pm

>155 librorumamans: That is a very interesting article, and I am going to be borrowing some quotes from it.

"Christians want to avoid embarrassment. Not first of all, because we’re just embarrassed socially, but because we know not only is the world watching, but a sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient God, a Holy and righteous God, the father of our Lord, Jesus Christ is watching. He doesn’t miss anything. We don’t want to be embarrassed on the day of judgment, nor do we want to bring embarrassment upon our own Christian faith and upon Christianity."

This is what bothers me most about people I see as Christian hypocrites--God is watching you, and you aren't doing what God specifically told you to do.

"... Most troubling were claims of private, compelling, divine revelation in which you had numerous speakers say, “God showed me this. God told me this by a vision or a dream.” And thus, notice what happens, they put God’s reputation as well as their own reputation on the line as to whether these things actually happen or not.

Now, just look at what’s explicit in the Old Testament and in the New. Just think in the Old Testament where false prophets are revealed to be false because what they said did not happen. And the issue then and now has to do, first of all, more with God’s own personal honor, since his name has been invoked, then our personal honor. Where they were just all kinds of incredible statements that were made, simply on the basis of some presumed and claimed private revelation. If we really believe in scriptural authority, if we really believe in Sola Scriptura, then we certainly don’t believe in the authority of any such extra biblical revelation, period."

When I hear megachurch preachers stating that Donald Trump will win the election, because God told them Donald Trump would win, we are left with two choices. Either God didn't tell them Donald Trump would win (and so the preacher lied), or God lied. Yet the lie never seems to lose the preachers any of their flock.

des. 18, 2020, 2:00pm

Don't hijack the thread.

des. 18, 2020, 9:07pm

My, How Times Don't Change

des. 18, 2020, 9:53pm

>156 MsMixte: When I hear megachurch preachers stating that Donald Trump will win the election, because God told them Donald Trump would win

It wouldn't be the first time a preacher had predicted a disaster which then failed to occur... nor would it be the first time they'd got away with it...

des. 18, 2020, 10:58pm

>159 kiparsky:

Time to watch again one of the old chestnuts from Amnesty International's 1979 fundraiser "The Secret Policeman's Ball"?

Will This Wind

des. 19, 2020, 12:43am

>160 John5918: Perfect! I'm a big Peter Cook fan, but I hadn't seen that one before. Thanks!

des. 19, 2020, 1:12am

What's the subject of this again? Favorite TV shows?

Editat: des. 20, 2020, 2:17pm

Hail Mary! BYU Better at This Than Trump, and They're Mormons

Editat: des. 20, 2020, 1:34pm

The 30-page report, plus six pages of supporting footnotes, sets out the six different kinds of fraud and explains how they appeared in each state. It then concludes that, especially given Biden's narrow margin of victory in the contested states, removing the fraudulent votes gives Trump an overwhelming victory and a clear Electoral College win.


AKA The Immaculate Deception

des. 20, 2020, 2:28pm

Peter Navarro What a HOOT!

This may be the most embarrassing document prepared by a WH staffer.

White House Advisor Peter Navarro Releases Dubious Voter Fraud Report

The report hinges on debunked allegations that have been rejected when raised in court. Navarro’s claims are either anecdotal or widely debunked. Navarro's waste of time report likely violates the Hatch Act, unless because the Trump Administration is doing nothing (Ha!), he has a LOT of free time on his hands to idle away on his home computer. Oh! You say Navarro has a RECORD of violating the Hatch Act?

Navarro must be preparing for his post WH advisor career -- writing fairy tales for gullible children.

des. 20, 2020, 5:41pm

>165 Limelite: Navarro must be preparing for his post WH advisor career

Sounds like his resume might include an entry for his enforced stay in a country club run by the federal government, from what you're saying.

Today I learned: they're actually called "Federal Prison Camps". Doesn't that sound like fun! I wonder if they get to do crafts?

Editat: des. 20, 2020, 10:13pm

"The Democrats have not yet succeeded in stealing the election because the constitutional process of electing the president is not over yet. The constitutional process has three steps. First, we the people vote. Then, the Electoral College votes. Finally, Congress votes. This is how it is always done when we elect a president of the United States.

...In simplest terms, the new House of Representatives, presided over by Vice President Mike Pence will choose the president. Since each state has one vote and there are more Republican led delegations in Congress, a reasonable expectation is that the winner of this three-step process will be Donald Trump, the man who actually won the first step in the process—thanks to the brilliance of America’s Founders.

And, also according to the framers’ design, the new Senate chooses the vice president, with each senator assigned one vote. This provision of the Constitution elevates the results of the two senatorial elections in Georgia to unusual importance. The voters in Georgia have a special opportunity to “stop the steal”—again thanks to the Founders’ brilliance.


des. 20, 2020, 10:22pm

"Club Med."

des. 20, 2020, 10:39pm

Trump attempt to overturn election is 'nutty and loopy', Romney says (Guardian)

Donald Trump’s flirtation with declaring martial law in battleground states and appointing a conspiracy theorist as special counsel to help his attempt to overturn defeat by Joe Biden are “really sad” and “nutty and loopy”, Mitt Romney said on Sunday. “He’s leaving Washington with a whole series of conspiracy theories and things that are so nutty and loopy that people are shaking their head wondering what in the world has gotten into this man”...

des. 20, 2020, 10:45pm

"Liberty once lost is lost forever.”
John Adams

Editat: des. 21, 2020, 12:49am

>170 Earthling1: "Liberty once lost is lost forever.”

An interesting quote but one that seems to offer only hopelessness to those whose liberty is lost. In the Quotations thread I recently quoted Vaclav Havel on hope. Of course Adams' quote is not true. Many of the peoples of Africa and Asia lost their liberty for hundreds of years due to colonialism, but in the second half of the twentieth century most of them regained their freedom from foreign rule. Most of Europe lost its liberty when it was occupied by the Nazis during World War II, but regained it after a few years of bitter armed conflict. Most of Eastern Europe lost its liberty when it came under the domination of the USSR during and after World War II, but over the last thirty years many of these states have once again become free democratic nations. The people of Sudan lost their liberty (not for the first time) in an Islamist military coup d'etat in 1989, and in 2019 regained it due to a nonviolent popular uprising. But of course it is a long and painful process to regain one's liberty, and it's better to resist nonviolently so as not to lose it in the first place. Like many such quotes, I would see it as being more inspirational and exhortational rather than literally true. It should certainly be a warning to the US people not to allow an autocratic ruler and his cabal steal a democratic election.

Trump's talk of martial law sends White House staffers rushing to the press (CNN)

A meeting President Donald Trump held to discuss overturning the election result alarmed some White House staffers -- people who are used to Trump's inflammatory and anti-democratic rhetoric. With only a month remaining until President-elect Joe Biden will be sworn into office, Trump has been ramping up his efforts to remain president, while also trying to convince millions of Americans that election fraud is to blame for his presidential loss. That's nothing new. But a heated Oval Office meeting Friday in which Trump heard arguments about invoking martial law to stay in office had some Trump officials sounding the alarm to the press...

des. 21, 2020, 1:23am

#172--it's possible that Earthling can only conceive of what he would describe as liberty if a Trump is in the White House. Such a large number have made such a cult hero out of this orange colored numbskull that for them he is their be all and end all. It's possible that if Trump told Earthing to lay his head on a set of railroad tracks and wait for the next train to come around he would.

Editat: des. 21, 2020, 10:54am

Aquest missatge ha estat marcat com abús per més d'un usuari i ja no es pot veure (mostra)
"warning to the US people not to allow an autocratic ruler and his cabal steal a democratic election."

CNN is an unreliable source to say the least. That has been proved by the Veritas Project. The CEO will v. likely leave during the next year. ATT owns CNN and wants to unload it, but no one wants to buy it. CNN hasn't been interested in journalism for many years. What it's doing is called advocacy.

Nor do I know why you continue to quote partisan, left-wing, anti-Semitic, anti-American sources like the Guardian and Al-Jazeera on an American web site about American subjects. I make this point over and over and over but nothing sticks with you.

We don't need you Brits and Canadians to tell us how to live our lives. To tell us how to vote is even more arrogant and condescending and paternalistic. You are thousands of miles away from the action. Usually your posts fluctuate between ignorant and moronic. But sometimes they veer into loathsome. This is one of those moments. We DO NOT have an autocratic ruler. And it's impossible to "steal an election" ...while... you are president. Trump is president at least until the next inauguration day in January. I have explained this to you over and over but nothing sticks. It's the Democrats who are attempting to steal an election and install their puppet dementia patient in a coup. I have given you links to the pdf of the Navarro report that describes all of this. All the facts. Have the nurse read it to you. You are one of few people I haven't blocked, but any more comments like this and I will throw in the towel. That's your loss, not mine.

Don't hijack the thread. If your mind wanders, try Ritalin.

des. 21, 2020, 11:04am

#173--you prefer jumping off a cliff? I'll let them know.

des. 21, 2020, 11:33am

>173 Earthling1:
From the person who abhors and flags what he/she perceives as “personal insults.”


des. 21, 2020, 12:03pm

>175 bohemima: For the last time...that post does not violate the TOS. If you want me to explain to you...again...I will.

des. 21, 2020, 4:52pm

Are ever gonna run out of Nazis? Not as long as there are more Nazi categories! Now we've got Explain You Nazi.

des. 21, 2020, 5:22pm

>176 Earthling1: Quoting from the post in question (173). These are your words, not mine -- bohemima, I do NOT espouse these words.

*Have the nurse read it to you.

*If your mind wanders, try Ritalin.

Both of these are attacking the poster, not the post. The implication, is, of course, that the person has ADHD (disability shaming), and some other sort of disability or disease that requires continuous care. Both of these are ad hominem, and flaggable under the TOS.

des. 21, 2020, 8:03pm

>178 ljbryant: Thank you for explaining this to him/her.

It seems that any remark that offends him/her can cause a post to be flagged.

But none of his/her posts should be flagged.

des. 21, 2020, 8:25pm

des. 21, 2020, 8:26pm

Ah, turning the tables. I haven't seen that done in...30 seconds...

des. 21, 2020, 8:57pm

700 club icon Pat Robertson's advice to Donald Trump might be appropriate for Earthling too: 'You've had your day. It's time to move on.'

des. 21, 2020, 10:07pm

Editat: des. 22, 2020, 1:18am

>173 Earthling1: it's impossible to "steal an election" ...while... you are president

I respectfully beg to differ. In many parts of the world we have seen examples of sitting presidents who have found ways of staying in power, whether by cancelling or rigging elections, or disenfrachising voters, or refusing to accept the results of the election after they have lost, often using the power of their office and the resources of the state to do so.

Presidents are not above the law and the constitution, despite being granted certain carefully designated immunities in order for them to fulfil their office effectively. Many countries have checks and balances to limit the power of the president, although as we have seen recently in the USA these are strained when the legislature and judiciary are stacked with people whose interest is to enable and collude with the president rather than to act impartially to uphold the law, the constitution and the will of the people. I suppose we'll know for sure on 6th January, but it seems that the US system of governance has been robust enough to deliver - but only just.

I believe the rest of your post was a bit of a rant, and I see that lots of people have flagged it, so I won't comment further on it.

des. 22, 2020, 2:11am

They are flagging incorrectly. That violates the TOS.

des. 22, 2020, 2:12am

"I believe the rest of your post was a bit of a rant,"

Nothing but truth which you skillfully evade.

des. 22, 2020, 3:46am

#184--I can understand why E. is always going on about what non-United States citizens would know about the United States because it probably seems normal to him not to know anything at all about other countries than the one you live in. His grasp on politics wherever or on world history are severely limited as it is and I would guess it's his lack of curiosity and imagination more than anything else that he misdiagnoses as the norm for others too.

Editat: des. 22, 2020, 7:30am

>186 Earthling1: interesting that you edited out the offensive insults which violated the TOS, but left the Ritalin remark, which is also a personal insult.

You’re such a class act.

des. 22, 2020, 10:13am

Ritalin isn't an insult. Your anti-medicine comments are.

des. 22, 2020, 10:13am

"You’re such a class act."

mirror, mirror

des. 22, 2020, 5:03pm

>184 John5918: That quote seemed so remarkable to me that I had to actually open up the post and see what had been omitted in the ellipses. Imagine my surprise when I found that the ellipses were in the original, and that was in fact the bald assertion that was made. I suppose the ellipses might be an attempt to represent some sort of emphasis? A sort of poor man's underline or italics? I don't know, but in any case the claim seems peculiar. The implication would be, of course, that every election in which an incumbent won was, ipso facto, a fair election. I wonder if we'd hear this claim from this poster in, for example, a discussion of Cuba or Venezuela.

des. 22, 2020, 7:45pm

>184 John5918:, >191 kiparsky: re: it's impossible to "steal an election" ...while... you are president

I've had my suspicions, but now it's clear: we're being trolled by Alexander Lukashenko himself. Should we feel honoured?

des. 22, 2020, 9:18pm

>192 librorumamans:

And here I thought Russians were smarter than that. Silly me.

des. 23, 2020, 11:27am

Rep.-elect Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Ga., who orchestrated a meeting with President Donald Trump to "get the ball rolling" on a Jan. 6 challenge to the results of the 2020 presidential election, says the effort has support from several GOP senators.

"We have a very strong case, and our numbers are growing strong," she said Tuesday during an appearance on Newsmax TV's "Spicer & Co."

"We talked to senators and we're good to go for this objection."


Editat: des. 23, 2020, 12:17pm

ESPN historical statistics show that hail Mary football passes that end successfully is 9.7% over ten years.

Wanna make an educated guess what the success rate of the Obsequious Republican Senators' chance is of derailing the legitimately elected president-to-be is? Less than zero.

des. 23, 2020, 3:50pm

>195 Limelite: Let's keep in mind that the point is not to win. These people know they're not going to win, and they will not be sad when they lose.

The point is to destabilize American politics by keeping people like earthling1 and proxette in a state of frothing confusion so that they and those like them will come away from this electoral season in a state of disillusionment and despair, so they will be easy pickings for anyone who has a sufficiently paranoid story (or, if you like, "narrative" seems to be the word of choice on the right these days...). Again, Trump and his ilk are chaos monkeys. They can't win in any normal sense, so they try to turn over the table and pick up as much as possible.

des. 23, 2020, 8:17pm

GOP can't win if they don't cheat, and they know it.


The group Majority Forward have filed a lawsuit against two counties in Georgia. Ben Hill County, and Muscogee County are accused of cooperating with a GOP effort ('True the Vote') to disenfranchise thousands of voters in the upcoming GA Senate run-off elections. Over 4,000 voters in these two counties have had their eligibility challenged and who must now cast a provisional or challenged ballot in the January 5 runoff election and incur the additional burden of re-establishing their eligibility to vote.

des. 23, 2020, 8:36pm

A number of House Republicans now plan to challenge the results of the 2020 presidential election when Congress meets to certify the Electoral College results Jan. 6.

Rep.-elect Madison Cawthorn, R-N.C., who will be part of the House GOP membership when Congress convenes in early January, begged fellow Republicans to join him in the effort Tuesday.

Cawthorn said in a tweeted video, "I have a message for all other Republicans across the country. If you are not on the record calling for fair, free and just elections now and in the future, I will come to your district, and I will fund a primary opponent against you."


des. 23, 2020, 9:16pm

>197 MsMixte:

That now makes two lawsuits against "True the Vote" that I know of. Stacey Abrams' voting rights group, Fair Fight, should have filed today in Federal Court with essentially the same complaint.

That's a bad look for the Republicans.

des. 25, 2020, 3:48am


Respondents have been given until January 22 to reply to the court.

des. 25, 2020, 3:54am

>200 2wonderY:

An interesting paragraph within the Fox News article:

Biden beat Trump by more than 80,000 votes in Pennsylvania and by tens of thousands in other key states that put the president-elect over the top in the electoral college. There's been no evidence brought of fraud or invalid votes widespread enough to close the margins Biden won by...

des. 25, 2020, 3:19pm

>201 John5918: And this line"

"Nevertheless, the Trump campaign continues its litigation and Trump himself this week continued to baselessly claim that he won the election by a "magnificent landslide." ".

I'm surprised that the diehards, including some of the people who frequent the Pro and Con group here, are not out there with tiki torches in hand, banging on the front door of FOX Entertainment.

des. 25, 2020, 9:19pm

>202 MsMixte: I'm surprised that the diehards, including some of the people who frequent the Pro and Con group here, are not out there with tiki torches in hand, banging on the front door of FOX Entertainment.

Maybe not physically, but there's been a lot of turning on Fox in recent weeks.

des. 26, 2020, 9:37am

On January 6, a joint session of Congress will open with Vice President Pence presiding as president of the Senate. His power will be plenary and unappealable. You heard that right. As president of the Senate, every objection comes directly to him, and he can rule any objection "out of order" or "denied." His task will be to fulfill his oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and to ensure that the laws be faithfully executed. This is a high standard of performance, and V.P. Pence will have two choices. He can roll over on "certified" electors, or he can uphold the law.


des. 26, 2020, 3:13pm

Correction: Pence can uphold the lawful decision of voters or he can pander to the perfidious conspirators who ranT that the election was stolen.


America is justly proud of its Greatest Generation and should be justly embarrassed and ashamed of it's Whiny A$$ Titty Baby Generation, all Trump Mini-Mes, anti-maskers, and anti-vaxxers, so afraid of reality and too cowardly to make a personal sacrifice for their country.

What -- do all of youse guys have bone spurs and wah-wah grievances?

des. 26, 2020, 8:11pm

des. 26, 2020, 9:56pm

Does Donald even read the shit he asks others to read? I'm kind of doubtful.

des. 27, 2020, 1:20am

Come January 2021, Vice President Mike Pence will be presented with the sealed certificates containing the ballots of the presidential electors. At that moment, the presidency will be in his hands. And there is nothing stopping Pence, under the authority vested in him as President of the Senate, from declining to open and count the certificates from the six disputed states.


des. 27, 2020, 1:22am

In the last 250 years, there have been incredible irregularities in how the electors were appointed and how they cast their ballot.


Editat: des. 27, 2020, 1:25am

>208 Earthling1: And there is nothing stopping Pence

Except, hopefully, his conscience and his respect for the will of the people, and the law and constitution which he has sworn to uphold. One can only hope that he puts his duty to his nation above his party.

des. 27, 2020, 2:14am

"The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted."

des. 27, 2020, 8:43am

>210 John5918: I think Pence is going to 'break a leg' in Colorado, which will completely prevent him from being able to return to Washington, DC, for the enumeration. Chuck Grassley would then take over to perform that duty.

des. 27, 2020, 9:55am

>212 MsMixte: I didn't know who Chuck Grassley is, so I've looked him up.

He's one of the people spouting nonsense about the Electoral College providing a voice to states such as Iowa (as if that's not what Congressional members and the populace vote do better)...

And that's actually a good sign for the integrity of the presidential election. Grassley would invalidate the Electoral College, causing permanent damage to the elections process with his method, by refusing to count the votes.

Unlike many of his GOP fellows, he's consistent about protecting "the Constitution".


"Sen. Chuck Grassley said in a statement, 'The Electoral College met and voted according to our constitutional process.'

In response to a follow-up question, asking if Grassley accepted the results of those votes and recognizes Biden as the President-elect, Grassley said in an emailed statement, 'Under the Constitution, that was decided by the Electoral College.'"

des. 27, 2020, 10:15am

>213 aspirit: Yes, Grassley would do the job as required, and he doesn't care about what Trump thinks, because Grassley is as old as the hills (87, to be a bit more precise) and he's safely in office until 2023.

des. 27, 2020, 12:15pm

Grassley's been around forever. My guess is that he's the wrong guy for the Trumpista's to be resting their hopes on. Throughout his career he has had a strictly defined sense of the things he's for and against and a strictly defined sense of his role whatever it is. He's a thorny old man and I don't think he'll appreciate any attempt to paint him into a corner nor do I think he'd appreciate having his legacy tarnished by something illegal and underhanded.

That's my take anyway and we'll see how it plays out.

des. 28, 2020, 9:02am

"Imagine this hypothetical: Vice President Pence has opened two certificates from Georgia. One has arrived from the Democrats with a clean governor's certificate and one has arrived from the Republican electors with a few… irregularities. The Democrats in the House claim that since Georgia's Democratic electoral votes comply with the safe harbor and the Republican electoral votes do not, he must award the votes to Biden. However, Vice President Pence and the Senate Republicans claim that Georgia's Democratic electors don't qualify for the safe harbor because their votes weren't "regularly given" (due to fraud) and that they weren't cast according to "law so existing on said day" (because the state elections didn't follow the state law as written by the legislature)."

The House votes for Georgia's Biden votes, the Senate votes for Georgia's Trump votes, and since they don't agree, the results get thrown out. If that happens in a few states, nobody will have enough votes in the Electoral College to win, and it'll get decided by a vote in Congress with one vote per state. If that happens, the Republicans win."

des. 28, 2020, 4:42pm

Mike Pence won't do squat, if he even shows. He'd wet his pants first. Heck, he's too chicken to be alone in a room with a woman not his wife.

And I think his instinct for self-preservation is stronger than any impulse he may have for negative attention getting behavior. The delight of bullies and mouth breathing ne'er do wells is repellent to Pence, a milquetoast of the highest order.

des. 30, 2020, 2:31am

Specific examples of voter fraud will be presented Jan. 6 if debate is held on the 2020 election results, according to Trump campaign senior adviser Jason Miller on Newsmax TV.

Electoral College ballots are scheduled to be certified during a joint session of Congress on Jan. 6. Miller said evidence presented there would be different than that in the legal battles President Donald Trump’s campaign has fought in the courts.

...Miller said the 1887 Electoral Count Act designates the vice president as the official to preside over the meeting. He then hopes one representative and one senator join together to objecting to the Electoral College vote, allowing two hours of debate.