Questions for the Resident LEC and HP Experts-continued June, 2021

The other thread was getting too long, so it's time to start a new one.

>1 Django6924: Thank you for starting this new thread!

I recently picked up a copy of The Warden (HP) and am delighted with the illustrations, the textured paper, and the marbled covers.

Three questions:
1) The Warden Sandglass is on Wildcat's George Macy Imagery. Sandglasses aren't neatly/legibly printable from there, are they? I haven't succeeded.
1b) If someone has one to upload, would you please be so good as to do that? I'd really like to read about the paper. I'm wondering why my paper is wavy in the middle of each page.

2) I've looked for other Sandglasses in the Google Drive—ones that surely must be present—yet I'm not seeing them. I'm thinking of The Iliad and The Odyssey. Are they really not there?

3) Some of the Sandglasses that I've looked at on the Google Drive are scanned as four pages. Could some tech-y devotee explain how to rotate and print all four on one 8.5 x 11 sheet?

Thanks, all. I am enjoying learning from this community.

>2 maisiedotes: re: 3: the font would be pretty small then, no?

Most pdf viewers should be able to “print” 4-up to a pdf. On my Mac it’s under layout, then pages per sheet (in the printing dialog).

Or do you mean join four separate single page PDFs into one pdf with four pages? That is easy to do. I’ve been meaning to do it for a few of the files on the drive actually. If that is what you want, which ones are you interested in?

>2 maisiedotes: When I was able to scan Sandglasses way back when, I didn't make them super large to save on file space. I figured the image files would be more interesting. When the letter Dropbox (now Google Drive) showed up, I decided against uploading those altogether and adding what I could to the Drive when I had a scanner.

I regrettably donated my scanner to my old employer before moving to my current home, and have yet to properly replace it, thus why those have dropped off entirely from my recent posts. Someday I'll buy a new one that can handle LEC letter sizes and begin that process again, and I may just remove all the old Sandglass and Letter files because of their relatively low resolution.

We do have a thread to post requests for Sandglass or Letter scans for the Drive! :) - https://www.librarything.com/topic/195732

>3 abysswalker: If you can picture an 8.5x11 piece of paper printed in landscape orientation and folded down the middle, it would be the same size as the Sandglass. I'd be printing page 1 and 4 on the front and page 2 and 3 on the back.

I'm afraid I lost you on "print 4-up to a pdf." What is 4-up? I'm on a PC and when I go to layout, I see "portrait" or "landscape."

Thanks for your offer to convert the four-page PDFs into single files (sorry if it's not the right terminology). I can't name any specific titles at the moment, although I've printed quite a few four-page Sandglasses!

Since you mention that it is fairly easy, perhaps you could give a quick tutorial? I'd be interested in learning how.

>4 WildcatJF: I'm pretty low-tech, but doesn't an app like Adobe Scanner on the phone do the job just as well? I scan quite a bit of sheet music in this way but purely for utilitarian purposes. Am I missing the finer points of scanning? Feel free to say so! I'm open to learning!

Another question about scanning: if I'm using my phone, and the original paper is wavy or has a fold in it, is there a way to flatten the image? Is this why you need a new scanner—a flatbed one?

Thanks for the link to the thread for requests.

>6 maisiedotes: My phone is light on storage space, and I like to keep it relatively free of apps. Just a personal preference thing; if it works for you go for it!

And yes, the flatbed would help deal with folds and wavy elements. Plus I'd have to do less scans if I got a big enough one.

>2 maisiedotes:
My HP of The Warden is on loan or boxed up, so I can't get to it now, but thanks to Michael Bussacco's Sandglass Companion I can provide the information for part of your question 1b above:

The Bell types, used in The Warden, were composed, on the monotype machines, in the shop of Westcott and Thomson in Philadelphia. The pages were then sent to Cambridge where they were printed, lovingly and clearly, in the shop of The Riverside Press. The printing was done on a fine paper especially made for this book by the Crocker, Burbank Mills; and the binding was done with care by Frank D. Fortney....

The Sandglass goes on to say the marbled paper used on the sides was also especially made for this edition by Putois Freres in Paris. Incidentally, this paragraph was taken verbatim from the Monthly Letter for the LEC Warden, with the exception that the printing for the limited edition was done by the Marchbanks Press on Curtis Rag Paper. Also, instead of the lovely marbled Putois paper of the HP, the Limited Editions Club has the board covered with plain blue paper with a reproduction of one of Mr. Kredel's illustrations--another instance where I prefer the design of the HP binding.

Since I don't have my copy handy, I can only surmise that the wavy characteristic you see in your copy may be due to the actual printing process, wherein some of the pages weren't printed with the grain of the paper running parallel to the spine. When they are printed perpendicular, the sheet can pull against the stitching as it expands, creating the waviness. I have seen this more often on books printed damp on handmade paper.

Here is an only slightly off-topic question for a resident expert--one that will hopefully provide you with some entertaining research, and is another example of how few degrees of separation exist in the world of the arts.

I watched a classic horror movie last night that I hadn't seen in a long time, and the name of one of the actors rang a bell; so for a prize, yet to be determined (and which the winner is free to refuse), what award-winning actor was also a book designer, an early and fervent environmentalist, artist whose work is displayed in major art museums, and had a long-time intimate relationship with a frequent Limited Editions Club contributor?

Contest ends May 1 (except for those in the Antipodes, for whom it ends May 2).

>5 maisiedotes: sure, though I don’t use Windows, so I can only provide specific instructions with either Mac or Unix/Linux software.

I often use Adobe Acrobat Pro (on Mac), which should work on Windows too, but the software is proprietary and Adobe licensing has become a royal pain (the company really wants to channel customers into the cloud based and subscription plans).

4-up means print four pages on one page. If you want two per side, that’s 2-up, but if you want it to work as a booklet, that is slightly more complex, because you need pages 1 and 4 on one side and pages 2 and 3 on the other side. Acrobat can do this with “booklet printing” I think.

The free Adobe Acrobat reader might be able to do this as well (probably can, now that I think about it). I would recommend installing that and then poking around in the print dialog to see if there is a booklet printing option.

Edit: try these instructions (link to Adobe documentation).

>9 Django6924:
Actually should end 10 to 12 hours earlier for the antipodes (Australia and NZ) as we are ahead of you.
On the other hand, I have no idea about your quiz answer.

>9 Django6924:: No idea but it sounds like an absolutely fascinating life. I wouldn't care to be an actor but I'm sure a lot of the people on this forum wish they could try their hand at a little book design.

>9 Django6924: At first I thought you were discussing Jean Hersholt, who I just watched recently in The Beast of the City with Jean Harlow, but I'm not sure if he meets all of the qualifications you list. According to Wikipedia, he has a Humanitarian Award named after him, but I'm not sure that involves environmental causes.

I'm looking forward to hearing who this is. Jean Hersholt, of course, was very involved with LEC and his signature can be found in many books.

>13 BionicJim:
Good guess! I ought to be more specific as there are so many award shows; this is a big one: Screen Actors Guild Award.

>9 Django6924: I probably didn't meet the deadline but Gloria Stuart seems to fit the criteria.

>15 AMindForeverVoyaging:
You got it! Miss Stuart had a long career in Hollywood, from the late 1920s up to James Cameron's Titanic, for which she won the Actors Guild Award as Best Supporting Actress. The horror movie she was in which I was watching was the 1931 "The Old Dark House." She tired of film making, though continued doing stage work, and began painting and experimenting with decoupage, at which she became quite adept. Later in life she met and married Ward Ritchie, who designed several LECs and HPs as well as fine books under his own Ward Ritchie press.

Unfortunately, the deadline passed before you answered correctly, but I will PM you about a possible consolation prize.

>16 Django6924: Thank you, and thanks for the challenge :) It was fun sleuthing, and it helped tremendously that the SAGs haven't been around all that long :)

>8 Django6924: You are a wealth of information! Thanks for being so generous with your time.

"I can only surmise that the wavy characteristic you see in your copy may be due to the actual printing process, wherein some of the pages weren't printed with the grain of the paper running parallel to the spine. When they are printed perpendicular, the sheet can pull against the stitching as it expands, creating the waviness."

You're introducing me to a whole new world. I'm looking at the pages of my Warden right now, and I can see vertical "lines." Are they the evidence that the paper has been printed correctly? Is horizontal printing automatically incorrect?

I don't know if this waviness is a flaw or not, but I like it. It gives these pages personality.

On another note: the two/three shades of pale blue in the marbled cover are very calming.

And on yet one more note: I sent a PM to Michael Bussacco asking how I could buy his Sandglass Companion, which is out of print. Does anyone know if Bussacco is still reachable?

>10 abysswalker: Thank you! I will play around with those printing possibilities. Always learning . . . .

>18 maisiedotes:
The lines you see are because it was printed on a "laid" paper (paper that lacks these in other Macy books is usually a "wove" paper). There is an excellent explanation of what creates the lines in this Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laid_paper

The waves are not a problem for me! As I said, I most often see this in very limited (ie., expensive) editions using handmade paper which was printed damp.

Hey, thanks to all who gave me advice on The Leopard. I did receive the book and it's the real book with no pages excised (just that strip where they attached the 'illustration' which is just as disappointing in person as it is in pictures). Also the book is signed and numbered even though for some reason the listing said it wasn't. It does have a little smattering of foxing on some of the page edges so it's not a fine copy but honestly, I'm alright with that for the price. It's absurdly large in person—I did try reading it in bed and while you can technically do it, it's a bit of a workout. The printing looks amazing and the paper seems very nice and I'm excited to read the story. So all in all, I'm happy with it so far though I do think they could have made it a little smaller and lighter.

>21 JedediahG: I'm glad your roll of the dice worked out. And while I don't have The Leopard I understand your comments about its tremendous size. The Shiff-era books often share that trait :) I do have Arion's Leopard and it's such a comfortable-to-hold size, so it's interesting to me that LEC's version apparently is the exact opposite.

>22 AMindForeverVoyaging:: Yeah, there's an austere bible-on-a-lectern grandeur to the book. It's either a little pompous or sort of fantastic depending on how you're feeling that day. It's interesting to compare this book to the Officina Bodoni Betrothed since it's another LEC great Italian novel that I bought last year. The Betrothed is the perfect size for reading comfortably and has lovely illustrations. For me, it's the better of the two but I really do also enjoy the I'm-a-big-fancy-Cadillac-of-a-book flamboyance of The Leopard.

>23 JedediahG:

And why did the LEC Leopard have to be that large compared to the Mardersteig LEC of The Betrothed, which is 3 times longer a story than Lampedusa's novel?

Interesting how Mardersteig always managed to fit his LECs into a single volume, sometimes large--even long ones such as The Betrothed and Toilers of the Sea, while Dwiggins seemed to love doing even relatively short books in multiple, small volumes. Personal preference for Dwiggins--for Mardersteig, economics?

>20 Django6924: Just to show you how much (little) I know: I thought that "editions using handmade paper which was printed damp" meant "they were in a hurry to finish the job, so they printed before the paper was dry."

Thanks for the article on laid paper.

Is Michael Bussacco still reachable? I'd like to buy his Sandglass Companion. I wrote him a PM a few days ago.

>25 maisiedotes:. "Is Michael Bussacco still reachable?"

I hope so! He joined the group a while ago and posted a few times, but he hasn't been on here of late (then again, I was absent for a while myself).

You might also try putting your name on the list here:

https://www.amazon.com/Heritage-Press-Sandglass-Companion-Book/dp/0982256507/ref...

I have a question about keywords when doing a search.

How do I limit my search to Heritage Press and rule out American Heritage Press or Heritage Music Press?

>27 maisiedotes: this will be platform-specific. Do you mean with AbeBooks?

Try enclosing your query with double quotes. That will cut down on some of the cruft.

Or turn on "boolean search" and try:

"Heritage press" NOT "heritage music press" NOT "American heritage press"

(I would put that in the publisher field, exclude print on demand, and set a date constraint, such as < 1982.)

>28 abysswalker: Yes, I mean on Abe. I tried all the restrictions you suggested.

Little did I know there also exist a Railroad Heritage Press, Global Heritage Press, Frontier Heritage Press, Vegan Heritage Press, Military Heritage Press, Labor's Heritage Press, Western Heritage Press, Armenian Heritage Press—and that's not even the bottom of page one!

There must be some slick way to rule out the other Heritage Presses without naming them all. I'm just not au courant on library science.

Changing the date (to 1979 as opposed to 1982)—and the earlier, the better—helped a lot.

>27 maisiedotes: This will sound weird I think but I have the best luck on all the platforms (ABE, Biblio, ABAA,ebay) when I type in "THE Heritage Press".

For ABE, try searching on "Heritage Club.". You might miss a few,but that should narrow it down a bit.

>30 literatefool: "The Heritage Press" was better (narrower) than "Heritage Press."

>31 Glacierman: Exchanging "Club" for "Press" was the best for weeding out all the other Heritages.

"Heritage Club" (with quotation marks) yielded narrower returns than Heritage Club (no quotation marks).

Thanks for brainstorming with me!

Can anyone tell me if any meaning has been determined for the numbers at the end of some Sandglass issues? Can they be dated by these numbers?

>32 maisiedotes: my best results has been using Heritage Press New York

>33 Bernarrd:

Yes and yes. This has been covered before in other threads, most recently in the 33rd post here:

https://www.librarything.com/topic/332276#7523195

>35 Django6924: Thanks, I have seen some write up on these codes, but I am referring to the numbers that are at the end of the text. These numbers that are mentioned are normally seen on the first page. What I am asking about is in the later titles, and maybe just with reprints. I noticed in the yellow cloth Heritage reprint of Aesop's Fables, printed in Norwalk, that the Sandglass has no such numbers as were mentioned in that post. It does have a number 357 at the bottom of page 4 of the Sandglass. Can anyone tell me if this number has any significance? I guess it is not important, but I was wondering if this issue could be dated. I have fairly well dated the other Heritage Press issues of this title that I have seen. The Sandglass with this number can be found on the Google Drive.

Will LEC book prices increase in the future?

>37 Lukas1990:
An impossible question to answer.

>37 Lukas1990:

I agree with Dr Carter, but it can still be fun to weigh the arguments! Lots of speculation below, let me know where I’m writing rubbish.

Pro prices rising:

- Covid-19 has made collectors of a lot of people, and some of these will continue down the rabbit hole from Folio Society books to LECs (and beyond?)
- More and more copies are damaged or lost over time, slipcases break, MLs go missing - driving scarcity (points particularly to rising prices for Fine or Mint copies?)
- ”Bifurcation” in market - missing middle - people go Kindle/cheap paperback or premium (particularly for ”major classics” of which many exist as LECs, and books signed by authors?)
- Connected to above point, no ”new LEC” in sight - letterpress (and perhaps illustrative techniques, too?) increasingly appreciated while increasingly rare (e.g. not often used in FS books though of course there are lots of smaller fine presses) and impractical in longer works? (Long LECs set by hand perhaps particularly interesting?)
- LEC centennial in 1929 and ”rolling centennial” for individual books thereafter might drive interest
- High prices (Fahrenheit 451, Ulysses, Lysistrate etc.) are ”sticky” - those who have paid them will not happily sell for less, and the price point history is self-reinforcing

Anti prices rising:

- Large limitations, not universally seen as Fine Press
- Covid-19-stay-at-home-and-collect-stuff bubble may burst at some point?
- To some readers, LEC editions will at some point begin to be seen (or are already seen?) as obsolete in terms of texts selected (because of advances in scholarship etc. e.g. Gilgamesh - more text now available?) or translations used
- There’s nothing to generate ”buzz” for the LEC, save perhaps this esteemed group and a few antiquarian booksellers - in contrast to the Folio Society, say, which is still publishing and increasingly carpet-bombing social media
- Reading trends? Not my area of expertise, I may be incorrectly assuming streaming services are crowding out reading…
- Large LEC ”catalogue” contains many classics but also many books not widely read today - might deter ”completist collectors” but also negatively colour overall view of the Club?
- Mirror point to the second one in the pro list above: some LECs have deteriorated to the point of being undesirable (crumbling or just sunned spines, illustrations offsetting), and may also deter completists?

What have I missed? And what’s the net effect of these? I haven’t the foggiest. But I’m leaning towards exceptional LECs maintaining and perhaps increasing prices (just possibly signficantly) but ”standard” LECs sold in the US not leaping over the sub-100-to-100 USD mark (current value) and becoming 2-3-4-500-dollar books or 1 000-dollar books any time soon. Edit: Which I guess is simply a continuation of the current state.

>39 GusLogan: I'll add to it:

Pro prices rising - the pandemic has caused a general rise in asset prices of all kinds - crypto currency comes to mind. Stimulus payments went to a broad spectrum of people, many of which didn't really "need" the money, so they spent it on "wants," like collectibles. We seem to be entering a period of inflation, which could well increase prices nominally, if not in "real" (inflation adjusted) terms.

>39 GusLogan:

This seems to me a very good analysis. I would, however, posit a qualifier:

"LEC editions will at some point begin to be seen (or are already seen?) as obsolete in terms of texts selected (because of advances in scholarship etc. e.g. Gilgamesh - more text now available?) or translations used"

I think the type of reader who sees criteria such as texts selected or translations used would be very unlikely to have been interested in buying an LEC at all. When they were published the Limited Editions Club made the attempt to get the best translation/text available (and commission new ones and revise existing texts when there were deficiencies) but this was done for the subscribers who were already committed to own a fine illustrated edition of a classic. If a potential buyer today is likewise committed, the text/translation used is of relatively minor importance. Someone who wants his edition of Brothers Karamazov printed letterpress on rag paper with Eichenberg's illustrations will not be deterred by the enthusiasm for Pevear and Volokhonsky's more recent translation, the current darling of the literary establishment. (Incidentally, I borrowed a friend's edition of this and compared passages to the Garnett translation as revised by Yarmolinsky in the LEC, and did not experience a greater depth of understanding, nor of reading pleasure. There are those Russian speakers, such as Ms. Volokhonsky, who claim Garnett doesn't get the right tone, and this may be the case, though I wonder if a modern Russian-speaking translator working in English can more accurately match the idiom of a century-old work without doing the same disservice to the work as done by the No Fear Shakespeare "translators" who think today's readers can't understand the line

It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

without putting it in the current idiom: "Life is a story told by an idiot, full of noise and emotional disturbance but devoid of meaning."

At any rate, I can't read Russian, so the translation that works best for me is the one that works best in English.

>41 Django6924: "I think the type of reader who sees criteria such as texts selected or translations used would be very unlikely to have been interested in buying an LEC at all."

I disagree, both anecdotally and based on a general principle.

Anecdotally: I care first about content and second about craft... though I will rarely seek out a physical copy of a work that doesn't satisfy both criteria given how easy it is to find cheap or free reading copies if needed. If it's a flawed translation, I don't care how nice the printing is (example: the LEC Zarathustra, translated by Thomas Common).

The general principle: the LEC often selected translations of historical importance or that were translated around the time of the original work. For example, I have the North translated edition of Plutarch that the LEC released, which is not the best translation from a historical perspective on Plutarch (double-translated through French, after all), but was the one (as I am sure you are aware) that influenced Shakespeare and other English language classics. I just picked up a copy of the LEC Wilhelm Meister's Apprenticeship, which was translated by Thomas Carlyle. There are some quirks about this translation, including some interpretations that the introduction calls out as being on the edge of bowdlerization, but also notes that there is value in a translation in English of the time, especially when the translator is himself an eminent writer. I suspect that many or most of these texts and translations will continue to be appreciated by those who care about such details.

Back to idiosyncratic taste, I much prefer Garnett's Dostoevsky to P&V. I don't read Russian, but I actually couldn't even finish the P&V translation of the Idiot because I found it so stilted, and that is rare for me, especially for an author I like as much as Dostoevsky.

Apart from the above-mentioned Zarathustra, the only LECs I can recall avoiding explicitly due to inadequate translations are Mann's The Magic Mountain and the Jowett Plato (and actually Jowett is okay, just not my favorite, and I have enough other Plato). There are probably a few others, but in general I think these editorial choices have held up well.

>39 GusLogan: Some very interesting points here, thanks!

>42 abysswalker:
From your personal perspective, what you say is true, but I don't think it holds true for people who want to buy an Limited Editions Club any more than it would hold true for someone who wouldn't own a classic Packard or Duesenberg because they lacked anti-lock brakes and GPU interfaces.

In short, Limited Editions Club buyers are collectors attracted to the marque--because of production quality, historical importance, illustrations, and, as time goes on and quantity, especially of the Macy period books, becomes scarcer, exclusivity. If content is the main criteria, would one be likely to purchase the Iliad and Odyssey in a worn set with the much-maligned (by current standards) Pope translation? I think most to whom content is their main priority would not. However, the production values of van Krimpen and the scarcity of copies means that even an ex-library copy of the Iliad on ABE is being offered for $80 and a pristine set of both Homers is offered at $600!

Clearly, the collector of LECs is not primarily interested in the content--by which I mean translation (or text). It is, as a writer once said "a fine madness."

There are all types of readers and collectors, but I think my qualifier stated above holds true when it comes to determining the future costs of Limited Editions Club collecting.

>44 Django6924: what you say makes sense regarding estimating the likely motivations of the average LEC buyer. My point that was for the small to moderate percentage of folks who do care about the text and translation, it's often not a downside. Even the Pope translations of the Odyssey and Iliad are classics of English literature, though they may not be the most Homeric (or so I am told). I have both of those as well, along with a few other translations. I would want some nicely printed copy of the Pope translations in my library even if it weren't done by van Krimpen, but I'm happy that it was done by such a fine designer and printing house!

Since I, for one, wouldn't know one translation from another and don't care, I go by production quality and other criteria, one of which is whether or not a book is something I want to read. I have a hard time plunking down hard-earned cash for a book I can't read. There are a few, however, for which I would make an exception, a fine facsimile of the Gutenberg Bible being one of them.

>40 ChrisG1:
Yes, thank you - I should perhaps have made a combined point of boredom at home, reduced expenditure on some things (for some people) and monetary policy/asset markets.

I suppose when it comes to prices in the short term there are few copies of any given LEC available for sale at any moment. It would perhaps only take for a small number of (well-off) people to become passionately interested in collecting these at the same time - through a craze of some sort, viral marketing, a global celebrity ”coming out” as an LEC collector, say - for it to potentially have a significant effect on prices. First on eBay, presumably - and then sellers offering Buy It Now options and on AbeBooks etc. would start to catch on. (Here the price anchor might work to limit price rises somewhat, though.)

Not saying this is all that likely, but the combination of a limitation (high for fine press but low compared to the number of people who can spare 100 USD) and low… liquidity? could perhaps be powerful in the right circumstances.

I think I need the Erasmus - Praise of Folly (LEC), the HP version is not enough! I know it's hard to find the book in decent condition. But if I found one and care for the book very much will the sheepskin binding still crumble? It looks very fragile.

>48 Lukas1990:
Based on my reading I can’t work out what’s best, but if I bought a Fine copy I think I’d give it a once-over with an appropriate leather balm, proactively brush most of the spine especially corners with Klucel G and pop it in a Mylar cover…

>48 Lukas1990:

I bought a Near Fine copy a few years ago. Still holding up quite well. Possibly my favorite LEC.

A question about buying LECs online:

A few times over the last year or so I've encountered sellers who politely say they can't (won't?) provide photos of a book. When this happens, would you immediately rule out buying the book?

While it's not necessarily a red-flag in terms of the condition of the book, my feeling is that it's often not worth the risk. However, sometimes it's a seller of long standing with excellent ratings/feedback across different platforms and I'm wondering if I'm being too strict with my approach? Are some sellers just very old-school but still dependable?

I'm in the UK, so the stakes are a bit higher due to the difficulty of returning books.

>51 GardenOfForkingPaths:
Buying across the Atlantic I’d still take a chance exactly once (per seller), if the price is attractive and the description is unambiguous (Fine only, too much subjectivity below that). Worth asking for further description of the condition, of course - partly to anchor a future discussion about a refund. I’ve had a few disappointments, probably around 5 % of purchases (but probably less weighted for price because of this approach). This said I don’t much trust ratings, maybe eBay’s. The presence of glassine and/or ML is of course a positive indicator.

>51 GardenOfForkingPaths: I am not sure what you mean by excellent ratings and long standing. If they are know major sellers with some of the major book dealer associations you probably would not be taking a big risk. If the rating is with the selling site alone, I might reconsider. There are too many sellers who claim to be major book dealers and have a large number of listings, who are really sham sellers. They copy listings from other sellers and and list the books as their own at a higher price. If someone buys a book they list they will then try to buy the book and have it drop shipped to the buyer, if it is still available. If the seller does not give a good description and is rather vague about some things. Uses terms like may have dust jacket, might have markings. These are sellers to be wary of if not avoid all together. There is no reason that a major bookseller does not list there books properly. If you know a seller and their reputation, that is reason to take a chance, but most sellers have no problem answering questions, or sending images. I personally do not buy from sellers who will not answer questions about a book. Some claim they have no way to take images of the book, but they really need to buy a camera or a scanner if that is true, especially if they want to sell high dollar books.

>51 GardenOfForkingPaths: I would rule out unless the price was attractive enough that it would be acceptable as a pure gamble where I would not be overly put out if the value went to zero.

That said, I've never once encountered a serious bookseller that refused to send additional info or photos. Such is not characteristic of "old school but still dependable," in my opinion. It is a sign of laziness, inexperience, intent to deceive, or some combination of those.

>52 GusLogan:
>53 Bernarrd:
>54 abysswalker:

Thanks all for your considered thoughts. I think I agree, a calculated risk for books that aren't too expensive, and if all other signs are good, is probably okay! Still, that kind of response from a seller does tend to leave a bit of a bad taste.

>55 GardenOfForkingPaths: can be frustrating. I'm also far away (South Africa) and if a book is not as described it is hard to get issues resolved. I recently ordered a book from a reputable USA dealer, which had no photo's but described as a fine clean book. When it arrived it was a remainder and ex-library, blacked out marks all over the edges and front and back of book. Luckily it was a reference book, so not end of the world, but I still overpaid 3x considering the condition. Due to distance it is rare for me to order something without pictures, in fact I have never done so for something I want to add to my collection, but at times will take the risk for reference works as above

>56 rocklands: Argh, that doesn't sound good - commiserations! I would imagine everybody on the forum has at least one similar horror story, not that that's much consolation :)

There are a couple of sellers I have bought LECs from without asking for pictures in advance. But, that's only due to a history of successful purchases with them and knowing that they grade books (and slipcases) conservatively and scrupulously. Nevertheless, I know those sellers would be happy to send pictures if asked.

Hi, I am looking for LEC Aesop's Fables and Erasmus' The Praise of Folly. At least in very good condition. I've checked abebooks, biblio, ebay and so on and it appears to me that these books are pretty rare. I know there are some booksellers who don't use these giant platforms to sell their books. Maybe you know some of them? Thank you!

>58 Lukas1990:
Aesop’s Fables turns up now and then, I find. Well, I’ve seen at least four in two years, I think, on eBay mostly. The Erasmus maybe just the once…

>58 Lukas1990:
>59 GusLogan:

How about going even bigger—ViaLibri? Seven LECs of The Praise of Folly are listed, though not with at least VG book and slipcase. https://www.vialibri.net/searches?author=erasmus&title=praise+of+folly&p...

>56 rocklands: In an instance like this, can you not get a refund or price adjustment without returning the book?

Today I went to my local library bookstore, where the manager had set aside a Great Expectations (HP) for me. Just before going, I remembered that I already owned an Easton Press copy with the same illustrations by Ardizzone. Nonetheless, I looked at the HP and discovered that the big drawings look hand-colored (there was no Sandglass), unlike the glossy, colored prints in the Easton version.

The last big picture—"The Final Journey"—was upside down! I didn't buy the book, but do you think the upside down page adds any value?

One last thing: I don't see a Sandglass or ML in the drive. Does someone have one that they'd be willing to upload? Thanks.

>62 maisiedotes: You may want to look through the threads for a post about the HP Great Expectations which is unique in the Dickens series as it has 2 different versions of the illustrations--sort of.

https://www.librarything.com/topic/211133#5404168

The first HP GE used painted watercolor illustrations by Ardizzone. But when it was subsequently reprinted, Ardizzone redid all the illustrations as lithographs. They are very similar but not identical, and on the whole the lithos are much darker in their tonalities (which frankly suits the literary content better). The painted illustrations were never used again for the HP reissues (I don't know what Easton may have used).

That thread is interesting because one GMD who obviously read the book closely and had a first-rate critical eye noticed that the illustrations (featherwate?), particularly the frontispiece with Magwitch encountering Pip in the graveyard bears only the slightest relation to Dickens' description of the character. I posted pictures of both illustrations for comparison since I have both copies, but I don't know if they were removed when Photobucket tried to extort money for using them as a host image site.

No, the upside-down illustration does not add to the book's value--just the opposite. This holds true even for Limited Editions Club books.

Hi everyone,
I'm interested in Heritage Press Gulliver's Travels and was able to find 4 different versions - 3 of them printed in New York and have same cover but different colors (cream white, red and blue). The other printed in Connecticut (skimming through the threads of this forum I've learned to avoid these). Any recommendations/insights on the above?

EDIT:
I found my answer :)
https://www.librarything.com/topic/140014#3503681

>60 maisiedotes: Tried that. There's one copy which looks quite good but the price is rather high and there's no slipcase...

>63 Django6924: Thanks for sharing that link/thread. Your pictures are still there. To me, the watercolors seem redder and the lithographs bluer. The Easton reprints are greener.

I'm tempted to buy the book with the upside down page for novelty value, but will refrain.

Here is the spine of my Wind In The Willows. Should I re-gild the spine? What do you think?

>42 abysswalker: could you please share who your favorite translators for Plato and Nietzsche are?

I’ve bought a lot of books from the US, as buyer from Denmark and the UK and have yet to find a seller thar does not comply with additional information and photos. A good seller will write to you, although not promptly but a response will come and you have to be patient. Good sellers are the ones that you stay with and buy from. As you gain experience you will easily find the less reliable and less honest ones that are not interested in representing a book or sale properly but more at pushing volume. Sellers such as World of Books I really dislike. There have been numerous and numerous occasions where I’ve received a book wrapped in a tight plastic bag with no support just as i would tightly wrap a book in cellophane and send it off. It was sheet luck that my shipments arrived without damage. These were cheaper hardback books ie the Great Ideas Today (Im surprised how well they took a beating and arrive without a corner bumped and scuffed) and I took a big gamble because alternative prices even with shipping made it cost prohibitive.

So sometimes it pays off but I would not trust them with a HP or a LEC as im sure they would arrive damaged with at least the slipcase cracked.

>67 Lukas1990: I think before i got someone to try to restore the gilt lettering, I would want to see a book that had similar work done by the repairer, a sample of their work. I have seen books where someone tried to "Paint" the gold lettering in, and it was not successful as far as I was concerned. I am not sure what the best way to do something like this would be, but I have seen some bad results. Maybe someone else could recommend a repairer that does this type of work.

>68 blue.eyes2: for Nietzsche, Hollingdale is my general favorite. He captures well Nietzsche's laconic intensity. Kaufmann did good work too (and is readable), but his attempt to rehabilitate Nietzsche following misuse by the Nazis led to a slightly too... lyrical? romantic? flower child? impression which sits uncomfortably with Nietzsche's uncompromising directness and sometimes biting sarcasm. Unfortunately, the Hollingdale translations are mostly only available as Penguin paperbacks or ebooks.

The more recent Graham Parkes translation (used by the Folio Society edition) is also quite good, but I think he has only done Zarathustra (and certainly not the wide coverage of the Hollingdale translations).

For Plato, Tom Griffith's Symposium is excellent. Additionally, the Hackett Plato Complete Works (edited by Cooper) will rarely steer you wrong. It draws from various translators, but both the literary and conceptual clarity have been high for all the dialogues I have read from it. Just from memory, the Phaedrus is particularly good (checking... that one was by Nehamas and Woodruff). Incandescent prose after 2400+ years, and in translation. Amazing.

The hardcover of the Hackett is also decently made (acid free paper, stitched binding), or at least my copy is. (This was the text used in my graduate classes that read Plato, so while I don't personally read Ancient Greek, it seems to be respected by those that do.)

The Jowett Plato translations are classics, but I find them somewhat cumbersome and stuffy, so I try to find alternatives where possible.

>71 abysswalker: Thank you. In the Hackett Plato Complete Works, I notice the Republic has been translated by G.M.A. Grube and revised by C.D.C. Reeve. Is this the best translation of the Republic that you know of?

Also, are you able to comment on the quality of the Cyril Bailey translation used in the LEC Epicurus?

>70 Bernarrd: Thank you for advice.

>72 blue.eyes2: Regarding the Bailey translation: for what it's worth, I just read that LEC edition a few months ago, have a passing reading knowledge of ancient Greek, and am an admirer of Epicurean philosophy. The Bailey translation is very fine. It tends toward the literal, which leads to occasional clunkiness, but by and large the English is smooth and natural. Also, it is a physically lovely volume to hold and read, from the Greek-key-impressed leather to the letterpress printing of the Greek text (facing page with the English) to the quality of the paper.

>74 Eumnestes: Thanks for this information.

>73 Lukas1990: It would have to be done by a skilled person, as Bernarrd says.
I usually wrap my LECs and similar good books in Duralar for protection. On books with faded titles, I have printed titles and taped them to the inside of the mylar covering the spine. This way the book itself is unaffected.
I actually added a similar label for my copy of WITW (on which the title is legible) at the bottom with the names Arthur Rackham and Bruce Rogers.

>2 maisiedotes: re the "wavy" paper of The Warden -- I bought and read this just a few weeks ago, so I know exactly what you mean. It's an awesomely beautiful edition but the middles of some (most?) pages are noticeably wrinkled. My theory was that the inks used for the illustrations (which are typically in the middle of the page) have bled and caused damage. I suspect this particularly because the yellow ink has visibly bled onto the facing page of every illustration. It's an annoying fault in a tremendous book. I also have the HP -- anyone know if the LEC is better? The HP of Barchester Towers doesn't have this issue but (maybe to avoid it) it's also printed on cheaper, glossier paper, which is not worth the tradeoff IMO.

>77 ger5555: After a little more research I think I've confirmed this. In the Sandglass letter for The Warden Macy says it was done on "a fine paper especially made for this book". In the LEC letter for Barchester Towers he makes a point of the continuity in illustrator, typeface, and introducer, but he also says they switched the paper and "in order to reduce the show-through to a minimum . . . titanium has been added."

I've recently acquired a HP Oliver Twist with a title page that says Easton Press.
It's obviously not a leather bound Easton Press book.
Has anyone else come across anything like this?

>79 GerrysBookshelf: Unsure about the EP reference, but that’s a beautiful book!

>79 GerrysBookshelf: The Easton Press' owners MBI purchased the Heritage Press from the Macy family around 1969-1970. Part of this deal included reproduction rights to several of the LEC and Heritage Press editions of the Macy period of the two clubs, which Easton continues to produce to this day. You have there a bit of a printing anomaly where the Heritage Press binding style of the 1970s was used with the innards of an Easton Press leatherbound copy from their "Top 100 Books of All Time" series, which mostly duplicates LEC/Heritage editions of old. This happens once in a while with publishing.

>81 WildcatJF: Well cool - I have a hybrid!
Thank you so much for the information. I’m learning quite a lot by browsing the threads of this group as well as the links provided.

It looks like the LEC Mademoiselle de Maupin has an introduction by Jacques Barzun who I like. Does anyone know if the HP/Nonesuch version has the introduction as well? Because the HP/Nonesuch looks nicer in most ways and it's cheaper but it would be nice to have that introduction. The colors in the LEC version also look like they might be a little brighter although I'm trying to decide if brighter=better.

>83 JedediahG: According to the catalog data source Boston College for this title, the Heritage/Nonesuch edition does have that introduction. I only have the LEC edition and like it very much. The colors were applied by hand, according to the colophon. The introduction by Barzun is only 5 pages long, so I could scan this if you are only interested in that.

>84 BionicJim: Thanks, BionicJim! Hmm...well, it sounds like I could do either one then. Nice! The LEC isn't that much more than the Heritage/Nonesuch version but it seems like it's a little harder to find with undamaged leather. I'm kinda leaning toward the Heritage/Nonesuch version.

>85 JedediahG: That is a valid consideration. I recently got the LEC-with decent quarter leather bindinging. It has been my experience that almost always, if you compare the two side by side, the superiority of the LEC becomes obvious. In this case the more generous size, the paper and especially the hand-colored illustrations would tilt the scales. I've given away many HPs upon obtaining the LEC.

>85 JedediahG:

Having owned both, I would opt for the Nonesuch edition.

1) The book is one of the Nonesuch "Ten Great French Romances" with the series binding designed by Meynell, and I feel that is a worthy consideration itself, especially as I have all the others in that grouping;,
2) The illustrations in the Nonesuch are also hand-colored, and I see no difference in the quality;
3) The leather on my Limited Editions Club edition was not of superior quality, and the dye showed smudges from handling

Thanks for your advice, everyone. I normally would do the LEC if I could afford it but I think I might just go for the Nonesuch here since it's a little cheaper.

Does anyone have any experience removing marks from cloth covers?

I have a copy of The Cricket on the Hearth which is in great shape apart from a lot of dark smudges on the front and back covers. They look like fingermarks to me. Given that the book is 90 years old, they could have been there for a long time.

I've been thinking about trying a tub of Absorene paper and book cleaner and wondered if anyone can report any success with this or any other method?

>89 GardenOfForkingPaths: I have used Absorene in the past and still do on occasion and, within its limits, it works well, leaving no mark of its use behind. If the dirt/smudge is primarily surficial, it will remove it handily. It does create crumbs if the surface is rough, but you just sweep those up. Extra rough surfaces don't respond well to Absorene, as it can't get down into the crooks and crannies very well. It works best on smooth cloth, paper and vellum.

>90 Glacierman: That sounds very encouraging. I have ordered some Absorene.

Thank you kindly for your help!

>90 Glacierman:
>91 GardenOfForkingPaths:

I've tried it too. It's not bad for minor stuff, but normal book cloth just seems hard to clean. One reason why people still value leather (or somewhat stain resistant buckram for library bindings).

>92 MobyRichard: It works best on smooth surfaces. So much bookcloth, such as buckram, is a bit rough/coarse and it doesn't work as well there. I've also used artist's kneaded eraser which works a bit better on coarser stuff as you can shove it down between the threads.

>92 MobyRichard:
>93 Glacierman:

Thanks for the pointers! I'll see how it goes. I'm not expecting miracles, but for £6.50 for a tub, it's an inexpensive experiment.

>94 GardenOfForkingPaths: I've had excellent results with a draftsman's dry cleaning pouch. Paper, vellum, and calf-skin clean up well. It worked wonders on my LEC Montaigne spines. They look like new.

>95 Sport1963: That sounds interesting! Is it this sort of thing?

https://www.preservationequipment.com/Catalogue/Cleaning-Products/Paper-Cleaning...

>95 Sport1963: That's a good one, too.

Sorry for the off-topic question but I couldn't resist...

If a book has deckled edges is it correct to presume that the paper was mould-made or hand-made but not machine-made? I've just made my craziest purchase of Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini illustrated and signed by Salvador Dali (published by Doubleday) and I can't find almost anything about the production values. Doubleday was mentioned numerous times on this forum, but not this particular book. Thank you for any input.

>98 Lukas1990: There's deckled edges and then there are uneven edges. Some trade publishers, notably Knopf and others, used machine made paper and left the fore edge untrimmed and uneven thereby providing a fake "deckle" edge. Being from Doubleday, a major trade publisher, I rather doubt it was printed on anything other than machine made paper, even if it is a limited, numbered and signed edition, but without actually seeing it, I am just making an educated guess. Some dealers think any uneven, untrimmed edge is a "deckle" edge, so one must be cautious.

Addendum: I notice some dealers refer to the fore edge as "deckled" and some as "untrimmed" or "uncut" if they mention it at all.

>99 Glacierman: Great points. I've noticed that the ~420 pages book weighs only 1 kilo, which makes it unlikely that the paper is mould-made or hand-made.

>96 GardenOfForkingPaths: Yes. Same product, different brand.

Would anyone be able to help with some thoughts on the Heritage Press Life On The Mississippi, specifically the paper quality, reproduction of the illustrations vs the LEC, and if the earliest printing (I think 1944, Sandglass 12G) holds any advantages over the later New York era printing(s)? Most copies I've seen have Sandglass IX:23, 1959.

I would love to own the LEC. However, since it's difficult to find in good shape for a reasonable price, and a lot of the value is probably in having Thomas Hart Benton's signature, I'm wondering if the HP might suffice after all?

The earlier copy I saw with the 12G 1944 Sandglass had a pale-blue-ish binding with solid brown page edges. It seems that the later New York printing(s) switched to a green binding with speckled page edges. Also seen a blue binding with blue page edges - date unknown!

This is not necessarily a George Macy topic, but what does "large paper" mean?

Some books were published in two versions. Take the 1927 Journals and Letters of Major John Owens (1927, Edward Eberstadt) for example.

It was published in 2 volumes. One version (the regular) was limited to 500 copies and bound in red cloth. It was also issued in an octavo 50 copy "large paper" edition. The term “large paper” meant that the book was printed so that the text area remained the same as in the octavo version (8 leaves/16 pages), but with significantly wider margins which was achieved by printing on the same size sheet as the octavo, but printing only four pages per side (rather than 8) so that when folded, it would yield 4 leaves (8 pages), thus a quarto, with very wide margins.

i guess at one time, that was considered something special, but to me, it just seems an affectation that wastes paper and increases the cost.

>104 Glacierman:

Although I'm not a fan of larger paper editions, it is not totally an affectation: my 18th century English lit professor (Cambridge-educated) back in college had several of these and used the wide margins for copious note-taking. We fine press aficionados are horrified of thinking of putting our crabbed scribbling in the margins of our LECs of Peregrine Pickle and Tristram Shandy, but scholarly types such as he needed a convenience place to store the nuggets found in their research so they could easily expound on, say, the "homunculus" mentioned by Sterne in TS, and where Sterne likely learned of it (Brown's Religio Medici which was in the author's library).

And although I wouldn't put marginalia in my LECs or HPs, I'll admit that the margins of my Kroeber Beowulf is replete with pencil-scrawled definitions.

>105 Django6924: The certainly would provide ample room for notes! *shudder*

>104 Glacierman: >105 Django6924:
Thanks for the enlightenment. I love wide margins and have some books with plenty of white space, but don't think they were actually listed/described as "large paper."

>107 maisiedotes:

Many (many!) years ago, I owned a copy of Mademoiselle du Maupin printed in the late 1800s. It had a few mildly risqué engravings (six total, I think) and although the book was enormous, a folio size about 14" tall by 12" wide by 3" thick, and must have weighed close to 5 lbs., the printed area was much smaller than the printed area of the Nonesuch volume which replaced it (and the Nonesuch had a larger font and more points of leading). Verily, one could have printed all Emily Dickinson's poems in the margins (and still had enough space for a few dozen of Bashō's haiku.

A conservation question:

Is there any danger in buying an older book (85 years) where the slipcase presents with what appears to be superficial silverfish damage, including one or two small holes that have penetrated right the way through the case? I've seen detailed pictures of the book itself, which appears to be fine and unaffected. Is there any risk that eggs or larvae could be present within the case (or book)?

I don't mind the damage to the slipcase but don't want to invite silverfish into my bookshelves!

>109 GardenOfForkingPaths: If you are really concerned, you can put it in a ziploc bag while squeezing as much air out of it as you can before sealing and then put it in your freezer for a week. That should do in any lingering vermin. Then, when you remove it from the freezer, put it in the regular part of your fridge for 24 hrs, then take it out and leave it in your library, still in the sealed bag, for 24 hrs or so before removing it and shelving it. This allows the temperature/humidity to stabilize to room conditions w/o risking damage from condensation.

>109 GardenOfForkingPaths:
1938? My guess is Uncle Tom’s Cabin!

>110 Glacierman: Thank you so much! That sounds like a plan. I shall start clearing a drawer in the freezer in preparation. Looks like I'll be eating a lot of peas this week.

>111 GusLogan: A fine deduction... but I inadvertently left you a poor trail of clues to follow since I had rounded up to 85 years, when it's actually 83, and the book isn't even an LEC :)

It's the 1940 Doubleday Leaves of Grass which Django and others have mentioned on this forum. I was dithering between the Heritage Press edition (Rockwell Kent) and the Doubleday, Doran (Lewis C. Daniel) edition and have decided on the latter, though both look lovely.

>112 GardenOfForkingPaths: The bag/freezer procedure is the same used to kill tobacco beetles in premium cigars should they show their ugly little coleopteran heads. Works very well with them. You can let it come up to room temperature for two or three days just to be safe if you wish.

>113 Glacierman: Useful to know, should I ever start smoking cigars!

I'm quite paranoid about silverfish, having seen a few in a tiled room adjacent to my library area when I moved in to my current home a few years ago. I bought a couple of packs of Dekko Silverfish Paks and placed them around the room, which did the trick and I have not seen any since (or seen any sign of damage).

I've placed a few underneath my bookshelves and under the sofa too...just in case.

Which LEC titles are set in sans serif faces? I can only think of "Hiroshima" (1983), but I'm guessing there were more in the later Schiff/LEC shift to artist's books.

I would hope there aren't many. Sans serif types are for advertising. That's my personal opinion and I won't be changing it any time soon. I've played with a few for text, but haven't liked the results, and I haven't seen anyone else's designs using sans serifs that appealed to me, either.

>116 Glacierman: Ah, we disagree there! I've seen several sans serif faces used quite successfully for text: Optima (LEC "Hiroshima"), Univers ("Jealousy" by Allen Press), Gill Sans (Perishable Press, several titles post-1981). I will grant that artist's books are the exception to the rule, though. I wouldn't want to read 250 pp. in Gill Sans!

>117 DenimDan: I'm glad not everyone agrees with everyone else. 'Twould be boring otherwise.

"I wouldn't want to read 250 pp. in Gill Sans!" Nor would I!

Sans serif types just get no love from me, but others obviously feel the love. *grin*

Does anyone know anything about the Heritage Press special versions offered to members of the Limited Editions Club? Page 92 of Carol Grossman's The Limited Editions Club says they had an extra illustration and were signed by the artists. Does anyone know how many Heritage titles were issued with this version? How the prices compare to the regular Heritage and the corresponding LEC versions, if it had one. I've never seen a listing for any of these.

>119 PBB: Hi, I run the George Macy Imagery blog and have covered many of the Heritage exclusives here: https://georgemacyimagery.wordpress.com/heritage-press-exclusives/

For the question at hand, the first series of Heritage titles were released in November and December of 1935. These six books were special in that LEC members had first crack at exclusive artist-signed copies that were a little more upscale than the standard HP run. 1500 of these signed editions were produced. The six books are:
David Copperfield by Charles Dickens/John Austen
Romeo & Juliet by William Shakespeare/Sylvain Sauvage
The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne/W.A. Dwiggins
The Song of Songs which is Solomon/Valenti Angelo - https://georgemacyimagery.wordpress.com/2019/07/14/heritage-press-the-song-of-so...
The Story of Manon Lescaut by Abbé Prévost/Pierre Brissaud - https://georgemacyimagery.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/heritage-press-the-story-of-m...
A Shropshire Lad by A.E. Housman/Edward A. Wilson

I cover two of them on my blog, which have the links after their respective titles. I also go into the series' background in the Manon Lescaut post (and some links within). More info on the first series can be found in its announcement pamphlet from 1935 (although I still need to redo the photos for this to make them more legible, my apologies for the going on 4 years of tardiness): https://georgemacyimagery.wordpress.com/2019/01/27/of-interest-the-original-heri...

Hope this helps!

>120 WildcatJF: Thank you very much!