OT - Recommendations for translations / editions of ancient Greek plays
ConversesFolio Society Devotees
Afegeix-te a LibraryThing per participar.
1SF-72
Can anyone recommend well-translated and annotated editions of ancient Greek plays in English? From my limited experience - teaching Antigone in German quite a while ago - I really need annotations to be able to fully understand the texts because I don't have that much classical background knowledge. And a good translation is essential, of course.
As for translations: Do you know of websites with samples, an article comparing them or something of the sort where one can take a look at some translations? This morning I went looking for translations of Aristophanes, but those on amazon had long forewords, so the samples broke off before the actual translations, unfortunately a common problem.
Any help is appreciated. I actually have the Complete Tragedies in the Folio Society edition, but unfortunately they didn't print any annotations, so that's less than ideal. It might be fun to read these after having more experience and a better background knowledge, though. And I don't have any comedies yet, so that would definitely be starting from scratch.
As for translations: Do you know of websites with samples, an article comparing them or something of the sort where one can take a look at some translations? This morning I went looking for translations of Aristophanes, but those on amazon had long forewords, so the samples broke off before the actual translations, unfortunately a common problem.
Any help is appreciated. I actually have the Complete Tragedies in the Folio Society edition, but unfortunately they didn't print any annotations, so that's less than ideal. It might be fun to read these after having more experience and a better background knowledge, though. And I don't have any comedies yet, so that would definitely be starting from scratch.
2InVitrio
The Aris & Phillips texts are parallel Greek and English, with commentary. Can be pricey but subscribe to Oxbow Books and they sometimes offer them on sale.
3Crypto-Willobie
I don't know about the annotation but Ted Hughes' translation of The Oresteia seems to be pretty well regarded.
hughes oresteia
hughes oresteia
4ironjaw
There is a group here I think called Geeks who read classics where you would be able to receive much detailed guidance. As always there’s the Loeb Classical Library
5SF-72
Thank you all for your suggestions, I'm grateful for your help.
I looked at the Loeb editions, but it was impossible to actually look at the translations themselves because of those long introductions and amazon cutting off the samples before the actual play started. Same for the Aris & Phillips, which I just looked at after the recommendation here. It's frustrating, I like to be able to actually look at a translation before buying blindly.
I was able to look in the Hughes Oresteia a bit, it definitely sounds good, no annotations, though.
>4 ironjaw:
Do you mean a group called Geeks who love the Classics? If so, I'd try there. I already tried to ask in another classics group, but there was no reaction and it generally seems to be rather inactive. There has been a lot of very helpful advice in the FS group on translations of the Illiad, Odyssey etc., which is why I thought I'd give it a try here.
I looked at the Loeb editions, but it was impossible to actually look at the translations themselves because of those long introductions and amazon cutting off the samples before the actual play started. Same for the Aris & Phillips, which I just looked at after the recommendation here. It's frustrating, I like to be able to actually look at a translation before buying blindly.
I was able to look in the Hughes Oresteia a bit, it definitely sounds good, no annotations, though.
>4 ironjaw:
Do you mean a group called Geeks who love the Classics? If so, I'd try there. I already tried to ask in another classics group, but there was no reaction and it generally seems to be rather inactive. There has been a lot of very helpful advice in the FS group on translations of the Illiad, Odyssey etc., which is why I thought I'd give it a try here.
6InVitrio
If you want to see an A&P translation, check out Alan Sommerstein's Penguin Classics versions of Aristophanes - I think they're the same ones.
Loeb does not have commentary. Just a limited apparatus criticus (basically, dealing with text errors and so on).
Loeb does not have commentary. Just a limited apparatus criticus (basically, dealing with text errors and so on).
7SF-72
>6 InVitrio:
Thank you, if there's no commentary the Loeb is off the list. And it looks like the Penguin Classics Aristophanes might be the way to go, there seem to be notes and the translation is called 'accurate' in a review. It's also possible to read a bit of it on amazon. Thank you!
Thank you, if there's no commentary the Loeb is off the list. And it looks like the Penguin Classics Aristophanes might be the way to go, there seem to be notes and the translation is called 'accurate' in a review. It's also possible to read a bit of it on amazon. Thank you!
8InVitrio
Sommerstein does sometimes, shall we say, enhance the jokes. Especially when they seem to be dependent on stage directions.
A great translation is BB Rogers (in the Loeb), over a century old, but Gilbert & Sullivan in ethos - he manages to rhyme the poetical bits elegantly. There are editions of his translations from Bell & Co that have Greek text and some (outdated) commentary.
A great translation is BB Rogers (in the Loeb), over a century old, but Gilbert & Sullivan in ethos - he manages to rhyme the poetical bits elegantly. There are editions of his translations from Bell & Co that have Greek text and some (outdated) commentary.
9SF-72
>8 InVitrio:
Thank you for that information.
I'd just like to make sure: I've read that older translations are often bowdlerised, especially when it comes to what would have been considered indencency in a sexual area. Do you know if BB Rogers (or also Sommerstein) fall into that category or not?
Thank you for that information.
I'd just like to make sure: I've read that older translations are often bowdlerised, especially when it comes to what would have been considered indencency in a sexual area. Do you know if BB Rogers (or also Sommerstein) fall into that category or not?
10InVitrio
Rogers doesn't resort to the sort of Victorian prudishness of translating into Latin, but he does tone it down. E.g. in Knights he translates one of the sausage-seller's vitriolic insults
ἐγὼ δὲ κινήσω γέ σου τὸν πρωκτὸν ἀντὶ φύσκης
as
"I'll treat you like a sausage skin, and twirl your breech about."
There is some poetic licence, as he wants to rhyme something with "rout", but the literal translation is "I'll fuck your arse instead of the sausage-skin". Which is not a good translation; to get the Greek idea across, you probably need something like "I'll ram my own sausage-meat in you, arse-first", or maybe even some sort of periphrasis, like "you can be the sausage-skin, my cock will be the meat". Sommerstein's rendition is indeed "I'll stuff you like a sausage-skin".
Sommerstein does not bowdlerize except for comic purposes. E.g. the Aristophanic pun "pinein {boozing} kai binein". "Binein" is an f-word equivalent. Sommerstein translates "soaking and poking" in order to keep the pun.
Sommerstein also has no commentary on that line. Rogers rather charmingly quotes a scholiast defining the word φύσκη by explaining sausage manufacture.
ἐγὼ δὲ κινήσω γέ σου τὸν πρωκτὸν ἀντὶ φύσκης
as
"I'll treat you like a sausage skin, and twirl your breech about."
There is some poetic licence, as he wants to rhyme something with "rout", but the literal translation is "I'll fuck your arse instead of the sausage-skin". Which is not a good translation; to get the Greek idea across, you probably need something like "I'll ram my own sausage-meat in you, arse-first", or maybe even some sort of periphrasis, like "you can be the sausage-skin, my cock will be the meat". Sommerstein's rendition is indeed "I'll stuff you like a sausage-skin".
Sommerstein does not bowdlerize except for comic purposes. E.g. the Aristophanic pun "pinein {boozing} kai binein". "Binein" is an f-word equivalent. Sommerstein translates "soaking and poking" in order to keep the pun.
Sommerstein also has no commentary on that line. Rogers rather charmingly quotes a scholiast defining the word φύσκη by explaining sausage manufacture.
11SF-72
>10 InVitrio:
Oh dear, I can well imagine the 'Victorian' (as in the time, but also later translators still stuck in that vein) reaction to this sort of ancient Greek humour.
Thank you for the explanations and examples. It's very clear that to get the full content, you really need to be able to read the original, but that's unfortunately not an option in my case.
Oh dear, I can well imagine the 'Victorian' (as in the time, but also later translators still stuck in that vein) reaction to this sort of ancient Greek humour.
Thank you for the explanations and examples. It's very clear that to get the full content, you really need to be able to read the original, but that's unfortunately not an option in my case.
12appaloosaman
It has been a few years (like about 50) since I looked at B.B. Roger's translations of Aristophanes. I translated Frogs and Clouds in school and can remember groaning at Rogers' translations.
I still have the texts we used then. My text of Frogs was essentially a reprint of the Oxford University Press 1884 first edition by W. W. Merry. There are 16pp of introduction, 49pp of Greek text and 76pp of notes on the text. The notes are mainly explanations of the more difficult Greek usages but many are historical or explanatory of things that might not be obvious. For example, the commentary on line 814 states, "The Chorus that introduces the contest between the two rival poets is intended to hit off their respective characteristics. The dactylic hexameter and the Homeric phraseology with which the song opens suit well as an echo on the style of Aeschylus..."
Aristophanes's plays are extraordinarily difficult to translate because they operate on two levels. Menander's New Comedy is far less complex and so easier to translate. I could imagine a translation that captured the original but in English - however, it could only be appreciated by someone heavily steeped in classical Greek history, language and culture and that person would be able to read it in the original, thus obviating the need for a translation. Much of Aristophanes' humour comes from high flown Greek with a constant undercurrent of double entendre and smut. The best bits of these were all bowdlerised. The problem with Aristophanes is that a joke is never as funny when you have to explain it.
The latest Loeb editions of Aristophanes by Jeffrey Henderson restore the full text and give good prose translations. However, you don't need to read much to see that they are more of a crib than an acting edition. If you try reading them aloud you soon see that they are rather leaden. Henderson provides suitable footnotes on historical events and people referred to in the plays without overloading the page. The best acting versions rely upon expression, intonation and gesture to supply the obscene double meanings. I still remember seeing an excellent pro-am production of Lysistrata many years ago translated by one of the cast (you get a better class of actor in Hampstead!). The only problem was that I saw it with my mother - both of us wanted to laugh at the very rudest bits but neither wished to acknowledge to the other that we understood the best double entendres. :-)
I still have the texts we used then. My text of Frogs was essentially a reprint of the Oxford University Press 1884 first edition by W. W. Merry. There are 16pp of introduction, 49pp of Greek text and 76pp of notes on the text. The notes are mainly explanations of the more difficult Greek usages but many are historical or explanatory of things that might not be obvious. For example, the commentary on line 814 states, "The Chorus that introduces the contest between the two rival poets is intended to hit off their respective characteristics. The dactylic hexameter and the Homeric phraseology with which the song opens suit well as an echo on the style of Aeschylus..."
Aristophanes's plays are extraordinarily difficult to translate because they operate on two levels. Menander's New Comedy is far less complex and so easier to translate. I could imagine a translation that captured the original but in English - however, it could only be appreciated by someone heavily steeped in classical Greek history, language and culture and that person would be able to read it in the original, thus obviating the need for a translation. Much of Aristophanes' humour comes from high flown Greek with a constant undercurrent of double entendre and smut. The best bits of these were all bowdlerised. The problem with Aristophanes is that a joke is never as funny when you have to explain it.
The latest Loeb editions of Aristophanes by Jeffrey Henderson restore the full text and give good prose translations. However, you don't need to read much to see that they are more of a crib than an acting edition. If you try reading them aloud you soon see that they are rather leaden. Henderson provides suitable footnotes on historical events and people referred to in the plays without overloading the page. The best acting versions rely upon expression, intonation and gesture to supply the obscene double meanings. I still remember seeing an excellent pro-am production of Lysistrata many years ago translated by one of the cast (you get a better class of actor in Hampstead!). The only problem was that I saw it with my mother - both of us wanted to laugh at the very rudest bits but neither wished to acknowledge to the other that we understood the best double entendres. :-)
13InVitrio
Lysistrata is the play most put-on these days because you don't need much knowledge of contemporary Greek politics - just that war is bad. Even then you miss out on the pun that Lysistrata means "army releaser" and there is a horny male character Kinesias whose name could best be translated as Randy.
Otherwise, to get the jokes, you need to know that Archidemos had bad eyesight, Alcibiades had a lisp that made him pronounce his r's as l's, Theramenes had the happy habit of switching sides in political tussles at the right time, Kleon took advantage of existing Athenian plans at the siege of Pylos &c &c.
But it's the best way to get a citizen's eye view of Greek politics of the era...
Otherwise, to get the jokes, you need to know that Archidemos had bad eyesight, Alcibiades had a lisp that made him pronounce his r's as l's, Theramenes had the happy habit of switching sides in political tussles at the right time, Kleon took advantage of existing Athenian plans at the siege of Pylos &c &c.
But it's the best way to get a citizen's eye view of Greek politics of the era...
14SF-72
Translations of comedic texts into German were actually how I first came to realise just how much a translation changes or outright damages something. It was so very obvious that things weren't really working. It's one main reason why I switched to reading English originals once my language skills were good enough to be able to enjoy that. I'm not at all surprised it's the same with ancient Greek, there with the added difficulty that unless you've studied this time and place, you just don't know enough to really understand what's going on even with a good translation. Ergo my wish for notes. That's the one thing I regret about the FS Greek Tragedies, and the reason why I consider reading other editions before tackling those.
15appaloosaman
Most of the great Greek tragedies are timeless explorations of human behaviour and appreciation of them is not particularly dependent upon a host of footnotes. Mostly all that is required is a decent knowledge of Greek mythology. The only real exception is Aeschylus' Persae which does need some knowledge of historical events to properly appreciate it. I still remember it as the most difficult Greek I did in school. The easiest was Alcestis which I translated when I was 14.
16appaloosaman
I should add, for those who don't know it, that there is a very good adaptation of The Oresteia by English poet Tony Harrison. Harrison has the advantage of having Greek, being a poet and being a playwright. It's his version that was used in the highly acclaimed production by our National Theatre. It's not a crib but is a powerful invocation of the feeling of the original as a play rather than as a text to be translated.
17distantriver
>16 appaloosaman:
What a great recommendation! I found the Tony Harrison production on Youtube and its wonderful. There really is such a different between reading plays and seeing them performed. https://youtu.be/mdv3vkECqXA
What a great recommendation! I found the Tony Harrison production on Youtube and its wonderful. There really is such a different between reading plays and seeing them performed. https://youtu.be/mdv3vkECqXA
18SF-72
>15 appaloosaman:
"Mostly all that is required is a decent knowledge of Greek mythology."
Yes, that's a problem. I first have to acquire that before I can just read ancient Greek plays and feel I actually understand them without further help, the same goes for more historic contexts I just don't have. I want to learn this, but I'm on my own since it wasn't part of my school or university education. In such a case, good editions with notes, commentary etc. can really help. When I worked my way through Antigone in order to be able to teach it, I was rather grateful for both the notes in the actual (German) edition and the commentary volume, the latter something I certainly wouldn't need for English or German literature. Beyond that I completely agree, tragedies in particular can remain very accessible, no matter the age or cultural background. The same things still hurt us, but the humour is often not the same, and there the exact wording is also so essential and at the same so difficult to transfer into another language. That's all the more problematic when it comes to verse, where the 'form' of the content is another aspect that needs to be taken into consideration.
>16 appaloosaman:
Thank you for that recommendation. I just looked at a comparison of different translations at the link below, and this one is quite different from more literal translations, but powerful and fascinating. I'll definitely buy this one.
https://argumentativeoldgit.wordpress.com/2016/09/26/tony-harrisons-oresteia/
"Mostly all that is required is a decent knowledge of Greek mythology."
Yes, that's a problem. I first have to acquire that before I can just read ancient Greek plays and feel I actually understand them without further help, the same goes for more historic contexts I just don't have. I want to learn this, but I'm on my own since it wasn't part of my school or university education. In such a case, good editions with notes, commentary etc. can really help. When I worked my way through Antigone in order to be able to teach it, I was rather grateful for both the notes in the actual (German) edition and the commentary volume, the latter something I certainly wouldn't need for English or German literature. Beyond that I completely agree, tragedies in particular can remain very accessible, no matter the age or cultural background. The same things still hurt us, but the humour is often not the same, and there the exact wording is also so essential and at the same so difficult to transfer into another language. That's all the more problematic when it comes to verse, where the 'form' of the content is another aspect that needs to be taken into consideration.
>16 appaloosaman:
Thank you for that recommendation. I just looked at a comparison of different translations at the link below, and this one is quite different from more literal translations, but powerful and fascinating. I'll definitely buy this one.
https://argumentativeoldgit.wordpress.com/2016/09/26/tony-harrisons-oresteia/
19appaloosaman
I'm glad I'm not alone in my admiration for Tony Harrison's Oresteia! Some Brits are not too happy that Harrison's plays are often performed with broad Yorkshire accents rather than 'proper' RP. Harrison is unrepentant - see his poem Them and Uz at https://genius.com/Tony-harrison-them-and-uz-annotated. I think my favorite Harrison play is The Trackers of Oxyrrhyncus - an expanded version of the satyr play Ichneutai.
The Greeks must have been seriously dedicated theatre lovers. They would typically watch a three act tragedy followed by a satyr play and a comedy in a single day. When I was in school, we classicists were taken to see a tragedy performed in Greek in an open air Greek theatre at nearby Bradfield College. The year I went it was full summer and a very hot (for England) evening. It was the most uncomfortable two and half hours of my life sitting in the stone amphitheatre - and that was despite having a cushion supplied! For those unfamiliar with Bradfield College - take a look at their Greek theatre page at https://www.bradfieldcollege.org.uk/about/bradfield/the-greek-theatre/. It's not exactly the theatre of Herodes Atticus in Athens but it is impressive and gives an excellent feel for what a real Greek theatre was like - discomfort and all!
The Greeks must have been seriously dedicated theatre lovers. They would typically watch a three act tragedy followed by a satyr play and a comedy in a single day. When I was in school, we classicists were taken to see a tragedy performed in Greek in an open air Greek theatre at nearby Bradfield College. The year I went it was full summer and a very hot (for England) evening. It was the most uncomfortable two and half hours of my life sitting in the stone amphitheatre - and that was despite having a cushion supplied! For those unfamiliar with Bradfield College - take a look at their Greek theatre page at https://www.bradfieldcollege.org.uk/about/bradfield/the-greek-theatre/. It's not exactly the theatre of Herodes Atticus in Athens but it is impressive and gives an excellent feel for what a real Greek theatre was like - discomfort and all!
20appaloosaman
There's a great YouTube video of Harrison reading his poem A Cold Coming at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5K_2gtJVS8. If you don't know the photo that inspired it, you can read about it and see it at https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-war-photo-no-one-w.... Strong stuff.
