Mrs. Radcliffe

ConversesGothic Literature

Afegeix-te a LibraryThing per participar.

Mrs. Radcliffe

1alaudacorax
set. 26, 2021, 10:16 am

We have a thread here for The Mysteries of Udolpho, but I thought that, perhaps, we should have a more general thread for the lady.

Perhaps each of her novels should have its own thread? I'm not really in a position to judge as so far I've only read 'Udolpho' (three times, though) and The Castles of Athlin and Dunbayne. It doesn't take a lot of academic reading to convince you of the Importance of 'Udolpho'; but I'm not so sure about the others as I'm fairly sure a thread on 'The Castles' would be a short one. I'm quite ready to be corrected on that.

Anyway, as a compromise I thought a catch-all thread on Ann Radcliffe would be a good idea, or stop-gap, or whatever ...

Incidentally, I've worded the title thus because I clearly remember her as 'Mrs Radcliffe' when I was young—no 'Ann' on the spines of my local library's collected edition as I remember. And I suspect anything other than 'Mrs Radcliffe' would offend the lady ...

2alaudacorax
set. 27, 2021, 8:39 am

>1 alaudacorax: - And I suspect anything other than 'Mrs Radcliffe' would offend the lady ...

... and then I went and referred to her as 'Ann Radcliffe' in the third paragraph ...

3pgmcc
set. 27, 2021, 9:00 am

>2 alaudacorax: ... and then I went and referred to her as 'Ann Radcliffe' in the third paragraph ...

You cad, sir!

:-)

4LolaWalser
set. 27, 2021, 2:38 pm

Wow, reading Udolpho three times, somehow I can't imagine... I haven't read her and don't think I have any of her novels, but there is something, a travel journal or some such...

5housefulofpaper
set. 27, 2021, 2:41 pm

I read The Castles of Athlin and Dunbayne just before I started Frankenstein. It's the first Ann Radcliffe novel I've read. Obviously I'm aware that it's her first novel and expectations were adjusted accordingly. One thing that as noticeable after reading newer (and more populist) fiction in the past few years was the relative lack of dialogue. I wasn't expecting Elmore Leonard, by any means, but it made for a dry reading experience a lot of the time, nevertheless. It actually reminded me of the story synopses published in the early days of Doctor Who monthly - we're going back over 40 years now - when not even novelisations of most of the older stories has been published, and a dry synopsis (pulled together from goodness knows what sources) was all I had of a historical tale like "The Smugglers" or "The Massacre {of St Bartholemew's Eve}".

The plot has definite echoes of The Castle of Otranto (but as that story set the template it's to be expected, and I imagine it could be said for the vast majority of Gothic tales). It's notable how often being high-minded and generous of spirit pays off - sparing a foe who becomes an ally and so on. Is this an example of Sentiment or Christian piety, I wonder? And does it point up how literary trends snd genres are rarely pure but grow out of one another or are braided together (of course that kind of thing becomes a cliche of melodrama before too long. It turns up in those Doctor Who historicals two centuries later).

And the main story is the stuff of historical romance. I don't know how much of that genre comes from Gothic, and how much from Sir Walter Scott.

I had slightly bemoaned the lack of dialogue earlier, so it possibly seems perverse that the scenes that affected me the most were the extensive descriptions of the cells, secret passageways, unlighted caves and so on of the castles (especially Dunbayne with its prisoners). I think at one level its because I'm not being told what the characters are thinking and doing (as reported by a narrator) but experiencing being in those places. I presume there's more of this to come in the rest of the novels (I hope this isn't too much of a tangent, but wasn't there a recent discussion her about the mise en scene (I hope that's the correct phrase) of certain video games having much the same effect on players?).

6Majel-Susan
set. 27, 2021, 5:54 pm

I looked up the old thread for The Mysteries of Udolpho, and I must confess that I am glad to see that it's not just me finding, at least, the earlier part a slog. I've been reading since July, and while I do intend to finish, I am still only on Book 2.

7housefulofpaper
set. 28, 2021, 4:48 pm

>5 housefulofpaper:

I didn't really develop my thought here. I wasn't saying the parts of the book that affected me the most were necessarily those that work like a modern novel, nor that the scenes in secret chambers and underground passageways, etc. were like going through a haunted house. I was thinking that these sections are where Mrs Radcliffe is evoking the Sublime (remembering it encompasses awe and terror, and she drew a distinction between terror and horror - a distinction that Boris Karloff has still trying to draw in interviews, as late as the 1930s).

And then, do the detailed landscapes of some modern video games evoke the same sort of feelings?

8alaudacorax
set. 29, 2021, 12:13 am

>6 Majel-Susan:

I found I eventually got 'tuned-in' to the style. It's almost a question of putting yourself into a different mindset about reading. Think of long winter evenings needing to be filled in the late 18thC, when reading was communal and by candlelight, one reading a section aloud to others, as in some of Jane Austen's domestic scenes, and then all discussing and thoroughly chewing over it (same goes for Austen herself, of course; which is why she so repays thoughtful reading). Rather than being eager to get through the plot, you would be almost trying to make it last, getting your money's worth out of every page. One of Mrs Radcliffe's long descriptions of scenery then becomes a thing of value in itself—almost a stand-alone.

9alaudacorax
set. 29, 2021, 12:22 am

>5 housefulofpaper:, >7 housefulofpaper:

I'm not very far on with A Sicilian Romance—the prologue and two chapters, if I remember correctly; but I'm finding it a definite step up from 'Castles' and much closer to 'Udolpho'.

Perhaps surprisingly, I'm finding it rather reminiscent of the style of Carmilla. That's something that hadn't occurred to me with 'Udolpho'; though, when you think about it, it must be quite likely that Le Fanu was familiar with Mrs R.

10alaudacorax
Editat: nov. 14, 2021, 3:59 am

Going back to what I said in >6 Majel-Susan:: >8 alaudacorax:

I was slightly surprised to come across in A Sicilian Romance a small passage that is almost a moral homily and seemed to me to slightly jar with its context. But when you think of it as deliberately designed to provoke discussion in one of those communal reading sessions ...

11WeeTurtle
nov. 13, 2021, 8:24 pm

>5 housefulofpaper: I haven't read any Radcliff yet, but this sort of style makes me think of when emotions come to the fore in creepy media. When there's no dialogue and nothing immediately distracting in an external fashion, it's easier for our emotional reactions and feelings to rise up as we speculate or just 'feel' atmosphere. Those are moments in reading that I really enjoy.

It's definitely a thing in video games, since environmental design is a major thing. There are simulation games now where all you do is "walk" through a landscape and discover a narrative rather than actually engage with it. I'm playing a game right now called "Conarium" that has been freaking me out even though nothing has actually threatened me, or harmed me, I've only been walking through rooms and looking at things, reading descriptions, etc. The creepiness is coming entirely from the environment: the lighting, the small sounds, the room arrangements, etc. There's also just being sabotaged by my own mind as the story is very Lovecraftian and I've read Lovecraft. So, when I see a picture of an elder thing, I know exactly what it is, and if I find odd looking gloves on a chair, I'm going to be expecting a migo around the corner. This adds atmosphere to what might be something totally innocuous otherwise.

12benbrainard8
Editat: nov. 14, 2021, 12:46 pm

>11 WeeTurtle: I'm in same, not having begun my Radcliffe book, The Mysteries of Udolpho.

And totally agree on how videogames appear to have reached the same milieu. I've recently started a game, upon recommendation of my son, called Red Dead Redemption 2. It has a very large space, in which to "roam, do free play". below is brief online description:

"Set in a fictional recreation of the American Old West in 1899, Red Dead Redemption 2 focuses on the life of Arthur Morgan and his position in the notorious Van der Linde gang. The game follows the gang's decline as they are pursued by lawmen, fellow gangs and Pinkerton agents.'

It looks remarkable: the settings, the buildings, what people are wearing, saying, etc. It reminds me of a virtual, interactive, setting of the movie, The Revenant.

So if Radcliff's books are similar, with setting, environment, and literary devices that "paint the portrait and set the tone", or set the story, then I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

13benbrainard8
Editat: des. 4, 2021, 10:16 pm

I've read first 70 pages or so of The Mysteries of Udolpho by Mrs Ann Radcliffe and am so far enjoying it. She's quite the thorough writer, isn't she? The story is moving along well, so far. And it appears at least so far to be straightforward. Though I admit the first impression is of a beautifully written, pastoral travelogue....

I've read some online descriptions that say later the book gets rather confusing, even nationality of some of the characters seem to "go amiss", but curious as to how that could occur.

Will write more, when am farther into the book.

14alaudacorax
Editat: des. 5, 2021, 7:44 am

>1 alaudacorax:

Funny how the memory comes and goes. That library edition of Mrs Radcliffe when I was a kid wasn't a collected; it was a two-volume edition of 'Udolpho'. I remember that clearly today.

ETA - ... and it was adult section, third bay on the right, left-hand side, about half-way up the innermost bookcase.

15davidpoole4
des. 5, 2021, 7:46 am

S'ha suprimit aquest usuari en ser considerat brossa.

16alaudacorax
des. 5, 2021, 7:48 am

>14 alaudacorax:

And now I'm doubting myself. I'm remembering rather small, very thick volumes, no dust jackets, blue, and no 'Ann' on the spine ... but if that's right I can find nothing like them on AbeBooks.

17pgmcc
des. 5, 2021, 9:06 am

>16 alaudacorax: My 2020 memory has never let me down. It is very reliable. It has had a 100% record. Every time I picture a book and where it is I have been totally wrong on both counts. Reliability like that is hard to find.

18benbrainard8
Editat: des. 17, 2021, 1:10 pm

I'm just about to reach page 340, which is half the book, and I'm enjoying The Mysteries of Udolpho. The pace of the story does pick-up more around the page 300 mark.

I don't know if I'd call this a "horror" book per se, it does read more like a well written "ghost story". I find her descriptions to be what I'd call long, luxurious, and pastoral. Some people tease, saying the # of times the words "melancholy", "sublime", etc., can be maddening. But the richness of the descriptions is well worth the read.

The protagonists are not up to the fearsomeness of Melmoth the Wanderer, Dracula, other Gothic stories, but Ms. Radcliff's advantage is of being one of the first writers to expand the Gothic genre.

The sections describing the castle and scenery make for a vivid book.

Won't discuss how I feel about the plot, until have finished.

19housefulofpaper
des. 18, 2021, 5:27 pm

>18 benbrainard8:

Thanks for the update on The Mysteries of Udolpho. It helps to have some idea of the best frame of mind in which to approach the book.

I hope to have something to say about The Devil in Love soon.

20benbrainard8
Editat: des. 22, 2021, 11:39 pm

Have completed reading The Mysteries of Udolpho. I'll admit, it's a hefty read but well worth it. The second half of the book goes far more quickly than the first half.

One thing that helped me in reading it was, similarly, to reading Shakespeare, reading it with an oral cadence in mind, that seems to help quite a bit. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I can imagine people reading it aloud, or reading portions of it aloud.

The explanatory notes at end of the book did confirm something I'd been thinking, in that the protagonist might be loosely based upon Milton's character in Paradise Lost. But he never reaches the level of evil banality that we find in The Monk by Matthew Lewis, nor Stoker's Dracula.

The plot is not too confusing, but I can see the pace or cadence of the read might be bothersome to many "modern readers", who don't have (more?) patience.

I'm going to reread excerpts from the Edmund Burke A Philosophical Enquiry into the Origin of Our Ideas of the Sublime and Beautiful (of 1756) and will also read up about 18th century writings on "sensibility".

I do like The Mysteries of Udolpho and will reread it in future.

21alaudacorax
des. 23, 2021, 4:21 am

>20 benbrainard8: - ... reading it with an oral cadence in mind ...

That's an interesting point. Reading would have been a communal exercise in those days, one reading aloud and the rest of the family listening, and then discussing the passage, arguing over it and so forth. But ... did that go for Gothic novels, which were less than perfectly respectable? One can imagine Catherine Morland-like figures sneaking them into the house and reading them in secret (I imagine Fanny Price wouldn't have been caught dead reading them!) And ... did that go for Mrs Radcliffe, who seems to have been regarded as a cut above the ordinary Gothic novelist? Can we assume that Mrs R wrote her stuff to be read aloud?

22alaudacorax
Editat: feb. 14, 2022, 8:30 am

Why the hell do I torture myself like this!

If I ever manage to finish A Sicilian Romance I doubt I'll recover from the effort. How the devil am I supposed to believe in a world where women, for no clear reason, go into hysterical fear at the sound of a footstep on the floor below, and what the devil is the castle (their actual home where they've lived all their lives) made of that they can actually hear it—cardboard? And in all my decades of fiction reading, I've never come across a character as exasperating as the 'heroine', Julia—a woman who has sensibility the way the young Arnold Schwarzenegger had muscles. And scruples ... words fail me! And as for Hippolitus, if he actually marries that quivering milksop he deserves to be thrown into the local mediæval asylum.

How many books do you know where the 'good guy' characters make you think longingly of baseball bats or sniper rifles?

You only have to (attempt to) read this to understand why Mother Radcliffe faded away while you can still buy young Jane Austen in any decent bookshop.

23alaudacorax
feb. 14, 2022, 8:31 am

>22 alaudacorax:

I feel better for that. Going to attempt to finish the chapter. Stand by with therapy ...

24pgmcc
feb. 14, 2022, 8:34 am

>22 alaudacorax:
I love the passion and exasperation contained in your post. It is very evocative; of what, I am not sure. :-)

It does, however, give one the inclination to avoid Mrs Radcliffe’s less well known works. I have not ventured into any of her works so far, but was planning on reading The Italian sometime.

25pgmcc
feb. 14, 2022, 8:35 am

>23 alaudacorax:
A good vent always helps.

26alaudacorax
feb. 14, 2022, 9:54 am

>22 alaudacorax:

... and, OF COURSE, once my patience has finally snapped and I've been provoked into exasperated posts on LT, the damn book almost immediately livens up. For anyone following in my footsteps, don't give up till you've got to Chapter IV ...

27alaudacorax
feb. 14, 2022, 3:05 pm

And, believe it or not, I've actually finished A Sicilian Romance. It was actually quite entertaining ... once I'd got well into Chapter IV. Even Julia seemed to get less of a prat towards the end. I have to say it was all a bit silly, though; I mean, some of the coincidences in it!

28alaudacorax
feb. 14, 2022, 3:08 pm

>24 pgmcc:, >25 pgmcc:

And now I'm embarrassed by all that passion ...

29pgmcc
feb. 14, 2022, 3:46 pm

>28 alaudacorax:
Never be embarrassed about passion. At least not until the test results come back.