Slightly off-topic

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Slightly off-topic

1Django6924
abr. 22, 2022, 12:12 pm

For fans of Bruce Rogers (and who isn't?) and of Homer's Odyssey (my favorite work in all literature), there is a chance to acquire the limited edition of Bruce Rogers' edition of The Odyssey in the translation by T.E. Lawrence especially commissioned for this printing. Elsewhere on this site is a link to the fascinating correspondence with Lawrence on his translation labors.

This book has often been called one of the most beautiful books of the 20th century, and from the pictures I've seen (and in all my years of bibliophilia I've never seen a copy in person, so to speak), it deserves that accolade. Oak Knoll has one in their new catalog, and for a fixed price so you won't be competing in an auction with folks such as Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos. A mere $8000.

https://www.oakknoll.com/searchResults.php?recordsLength=100&action=catalog&...

If you are unwilling to take out a 2nd mortgage to finance the purchase, the Limited Editions Club in 1981 published the Lawrence translation with Barry Moser's illustrations. It is one of the 8 different translations of The Odyssey in my library and for a prose translation ranks at the top with Palmer's (though the Palmer features N.C. Wyeth's illustrations which to my mind are unsurpassed).

2GusLogan
abr. 22, 2022, 12:35 pm

>1 Django6924:
I feel both richer and poorer for having seen it!

3kdweber
abr. 22, 2022, 8:20 pm

>1 Django6924: I too am an admirer of The Odyssey with eight editions using six translators. Which translations am I missing? I've got: Pope, Lattimore, Lawrence, Palmer, Green, and Fagles.

4bacchus.
abr. 23, 2022, 1:34 am

In a parallel universe I'm all over this.

>3 kdweber: I've read the Odyssey in a few modern Greek translations but never in English; which one would you say is more fun to read?

5Django6924
abr. 23, 2022, 1:53 am

>3 kdweber: "Which translations am I missing?"

The highly-regarded verse translation by Robert Fitzgerald (which I like very much) and a personal favorite though one which is much-maligned, but was my introduction to the Odyssey in grade school, the abridged verse translation by Herbert Bates.

Bates used a meter (iambic tetrameter) which made no attempt to mimic or allude to the dactylic hexameters of the original and this is one criticism leveled at him; but as he points out, Ancient Greek has a structure of accented vowels and consonants which allows for very swift scansion, avoiding the plodding quality of the same verse structure in English:

"This is the forest primeval, the murmuring pines and the hemlocks..."

just does not have the swiftness that scholars of Ancient Greek (which I am not!) tell us is so characteristic of the Homeric style. The way English is accented makes iambs the most natural rhythm for narrative poetry (Shakespeare thought so, too!) and for me, Bates' lines have the swiftness I want and expect. But more than that, Bates also shines in making the poem work in ways which may not be literal translations of the original, but in some way bring in the allusive, many-faceted quality of the original. For example, in the invocation, Homer uses the Greek word "polytropos" in describing Odysseus. The literal meaning of the word is "many-turning". How do different translators render this?:
A. Pope: "for wisdom’s various arts renown’d"
T.E. Lawrence: "VARIOUS-MINDED"
G.H. Palmer: " adventurous"
H. Bates: "of many changes"
E.V. Rieu: "resourceful"
R. Fitzgerald: "skilled in all ways of contending"
R. Lattimore: "of many ways"
R. Fagles: "of twists and turns"

These are the translators I currently have. I do not have the recent translation by Emily Wilson, which has been highly touted by critics who agree with Samuel Butler and Robert Graves that the author of the Odyssey was a woman, not the the blind bard of legend, but I did peek into a copy to see how she translated "polytropos" which she renders as "complicated." Now all these connotations are possible, and the fact that all these can exist in a single word in Greek but sometimes require a phrase to suggest them in English indicates the problems the translator faces. Still, the literal "many-turning" meaning seems best rendered both by Fagles' "of twists and turns" but I like even better Bates' "of many changes" because it foreshadows Odysseus' many changes of identity throughout the story, where he gives false names to several strangers (Polyphemous for one) and assumes (with Athena's help) an entirely different appearance after he arrives in Ithaca. Thus not only does the descriptive word get a pretty good equivalent, but in the way of the best poetry explodes into new facets of meaning which enrich our understanding of what the poet is aiming to convey. A particularly fine example of this is Odysseus' speech after the trial of the bow. Here is Lawrence's translation:

"In this very hour, while daylight lasts, is the Achaeans' supper to be contrived: and after it we must make them a different play, with the dancing and music that garnish any feast"

Fagles:

"But the hour has come to serve our masters right--supper in broad daylight--then to other revels, song and dancing, all that crowns a feast."

Bates:

"At last the time has come, the destined hour to bid these wooers sup with us, though yet it is full day! And we have sport with them besides--the dance and twanging of the lyre, to crown this coming feast!"

All three have their strengths: I particularly like Lawrence's choice of "while daylight lasts" (before darkness), "contrived" with its connotations of a scheme, and "other revels" hinting at unconventional celebrations. Fagles has the veiled threat "the time has come to serve our masters right" especially made pertinent by the preceding "at last"--haven't we often heard Odysseus described as "long-suffering"?

But for me, Bates, though he may not be literal in his translation, which is something only a scholar would know (and besides we are reading the poem in English! and the question I always ask, is what is the most effective English version?), though he may not be rendering the literal words, he fully brings out the ominous foreboding of Odysseus' threat "At last the time has come, the destined hour to bid these wooers sup with us" with its additional allusion to Odysseus' "long suffering" as well as his peculiar grim sense of humor we have seen before (even in The Iliad) "and we have sport with them besides." And something which no other translation I have read offers, the wonderful line "the dance and twanging of the lyre" which is clearly the foreshadowing of the twanging of the bowstring slaying the wooers--having that double meaning characteristic of good poetry.

Again, all the different translations get the basic story across, but some provide more than that. Until I can learn to fluently read Classical Greek (next life, perhaps), I am content with a couple of translations that hint at the richness which has made the originals immortal.

(In fairness, I should mention that despite my admiration for Bates' translation, its major drawback is that it is quite abridged.)

6kdweber
abr. 23, 2022, 2:19 am

>5 Django6924: Thank you Robert. Doh! on the Fitzgerald. My daughter was an English major with a classics minor in college and gave me her paperback copies of Fitzgerald. I've actually read it but I generally don't log paperbacks into my library database and as I have a shelf shortage, paperbacks that I do keep are usually double shelved behind my nicer books where I forget about them. I've read some reviews of the Emily Wilson translation but have not read the book or even looked through it. I'm completely unfamiliar with the Bates and Rieu translations. It looks like I have more research to perform.

7bacchus.
Editat: abr. 23, 2022, 4:47 am

Fascinating. Thank you for the elaboration on translations. I'll definitely try the Bates one.

On a relevant note, I've read a few times at LT about the translation of polytropos... I believe the meaning of the word can be better understood by the epic's context. I've mentioned before that Odyssey kind of revolves around the word "μητις" (Odysseus can be seen as the personified definition of the word).

The word can be found in both Iliad and Odyssey in various forms and always denotes a spark of inspiration, instantly sourcing from all knowledge and craft one has acquired, as well as the application of that wisdom (inspiration-application) in situations where there's no time for deliberation and the hero is underhanded.

Similar to the many examples in Odyssey, there's another prominent and very interesting example of μητις in Iliad: Antilochus, in the chariot race against Menelaus, uses "μητις" to outrace his opponent who has the better horses. His father Nestor, which is often described as wise amongst the Greeks, uses the word twice when advising his son that μητις, not courage, will win him the race.

Iliad / Book 23
315 μήτι τοι δρυτόμος μέγ᾽ ἀμείνων ἠὲ βίηφι·
316 μήτι δ᾽ αὖτε κυβερνήτης ἐνὶ οἴνοπι πόντῳ

I find it also interesting that μητις was not considered a virtue in Iliad (as shown by Menelaus reaction after the race) and Odysseus is often perceived as a coward by the more "brute" heroes; Sophocles' Ajax shows the antithesis between the two brilliantly. Understandably μητις wasn't considered as a virtue in Classical Greece either where dialectics where so intertwined with reaching the truth (lies and deception, which can often derive from μητις, where considered female attributes). So the word, like the goddess*, gradually disappeared even from later Ancient Greece times.

*Mητις was also a prominent goddess in Orphic teachings, first wife of Zeus and mother of Athena. Zeus swallowed her (surprise) in fear that she would give him a son wise enough to deceive him as he did to his father before.

For someone that looks at the various translations through this context they all kind of make sense (or they are not as necessary to be literally translated) because they could be attributes of someone who has μητις.

Iliad suffers from the same risk - without context, the word "psyche", which often translates as "spirit" in English, can pass down an anachronistic meaning to the reader. It was probably not perceived as the separate and immortal entity that Pythagoras and later Plato introduced.

From a psychological point of view, the experience of Iliad heroes (and the bards in my opinion) was probably psyhosomatic - where various physical body parts, "menos", heart, "prhen" etc. sometimes even argue with each other (Odyssey, Book 20, around line 17), buzz (Iliad N 61-79) and steered by "thymos" (very often a "divine" doing). All these contribute to a very different notion and perception of one's self. In a sense, Iliad calls directly to our emotions, not our logic (which in my opinion is why it's so brilliant)

For a short read on how Ancient Greeks might have perceived the idea of 'self'
https://oxfordre.com/classics/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199381135.001.0001/acref...

EDIT: Fixed spelling and grammar but not all. Hope I make sense.
I'm sorry for intruding. I hope this doesn't seem like self-promoting if anything. I'm just an admirer of Ancient Greece and it's hard to find people as interested as >5 Django6924: so hoping to fish some ongoing discussion :)

8affle
Editat: abr. 23, 2022, 6:22 am

>6 kdweber:

Ken, you may like to research the Rieu via the Folio Society edition of the mid-seventies. Modestly priced copies often available, the attraction of the edition is the illustration by Elisabeth Frink.

Edited to add that there is a matching edition of the Iliad

9Lukas1990
Editat: abr. 23, 2022, 7:28 am

>1 Django6924: The condition doesn't look fine or near fine - the medalions and binding... There are better and cheaper copies on the market at the moment. But I completely agree that it's a masterpiece and would love to own it.

10Glacierman
abr. 23, 2022, 9:10 pm

>7 bacchus.: So, what is μητις? My Google skills have failed me on this one.

11bacchus.
Editat: abr. 24, 2022, 2:14 am

>10 Glacierman:
A sort of cunning intelligence that derives from someone who has wisdom, skills and many crafts in situations when there's no time for planning (foxes are described as animals with metis by the Ancient Greeks).

With this in mind, "polytropos" (whether that's translated as man of many ways, many changes, resourceful) makes sense as it's an attribute of metis.

Goddess,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)

Frisk Etymological English
Meaning: wisdom, skill, craft (Il.).
Compounds: As 2. member e.g. in πολύ-μητις with many councils, inventive, of Odysseus, also of Hephaistos (Hom.),

Marcel Détienne: Les ruses de l'intelligence: La mètis des Grecs (Paris), 1974
https://www.librarything.com/work/10270899

12Glacierman
abr. 24, 2022, 2:58 pm

>11 bacchus.: Thank you. I am enlightened.

13Django6924
abr. 24, 2022, 10:16 pm

It perhaps says something about the human psyche that those who seemed blessed with more than ordinary knowledge and resourcefulness, are to be viewed with suspicion by the rest of us as "too smart for their own good." The most appropriate translation of "metis" when applied to Odysseus is probably "cunning" but here is where a study of etymology comes in handy. Now this word itself has gone through in English a similar pejorative transformation as the Greek "metis" (as described by >7 bacchus.: above). In Old English the word's root "cunnon" meant "to know how to" and "to be capable," often said of one who excelled at crafts ("crafty"). The original word had no implication of deceit, which came to be used in this sense in the late Middle English period.

Although pacifists may appreciate Odysseus' scheme of the wooden horse as a brilliant and praiseworthy stratagem, ending ten years of unremitting warfare, later writers did not: Virgil obviously would not see him as a hero, being the instrument of destruction of Aeneas' homeland, and Dante likewise condemns him to Hell. In Troilus and Cressida Shakespeare portrays him as someone who will devise whatever schemes are necessary to achieve his goal, and who seems to have no moral center.

It remained for Joyce to rehabilitate Odysseus' (Ulysses') character--not heroic in the mold of the savages Achilles, but human, which I prefer my heroes to be.

14bacchus.
Editat: abr. 25, 2022, 2:05 pm

>13 Django6924: I find word etymology very interesting - as for "cunnon", one learns every day :)

"The investigation of the meaning of words is the beginning of education.“
Antisthenis

On a similar note, Greek names within epics and tragedies often carry the same obscurity and can reveal so much when looked into (Antigone and her 2 brothers are prime examples of names tied to fate).

In my mind (and it's still a very confused one) before analytical definitions could break down complicated and abstract ideas (ie Plato) people were used to "feeling" such ideas by example (similar to how a child learns; or found in a child trying to explain what "freedom" or "justice" is). The best stories, or those that aroused the most intense of feelings, made up for "templates" of conception. It's as if the poets, their tragedies destined to be the perfect "definitions", were seeking for the most extreme manifestation of such examples; ones so absolute that other examples could only refer to.

15Glacierman
abr. 25, 2022, 4:43 pm

>14 bacchus.: "It's as if the poets, their tragedies destined to be the perfect "definitions", the most extreme manifestation of such examples; ones so absolute that other examples could only refer to."

And thus the Oedipus complex whereby all know what is meant.

Well, assuming one has read one's Greek classics.

16bacchus.
Editat: abr. 26, 2022, 12:13 am

>15 Glacierman: And thus the Oedipus complex whereby all know what is meant.

True, Freud's term is rather ingenious.

17Django6924
abr. 27, 2022, 12:55 am

>14 bacchus.:. " I find word etymology very interesting "

Indeed, for those familiar with Old English (or Old Norse) poetry, the term "kenning" refers to the characteristic figure of speech which joins two words together: e.g., "whale-road" for "sea." And the root of the word "kenning" is a form of our old friend "cunnon" :

The corresponding modern verb to ken survives in Scots and English dialects and in general English through the derivative existing in the standard language in the set expression beyond one's ken, "beyond the scope of one's knowledge" and in the phonologically altered forms uncanny, "surreal" or "supernatural", and canny, "shrewd", "prudent". Modern Scots retains (with slight differences between dialects) tae ken "to know", kent "knew" or "known", Afrikaans ken "be acquainted with" and "to know" and kennis "knowledge". Old Norse kenna (Modern Icelandic kenna, Swedish känna, Danish kende, Norwegian kjenne or kjenna) is cognate with Old English cennan, Old Frisian kenna, kanna, Old Saxon (ant)kennian (Middle Dutch and Dutch kennen), Old High German (ir-, in-, pi-) chennan (Middle High German and German kennen), Gothic kannjan

(thanks Wikipedia!)

When I was an adolescent I was quite fond of Mad magazine, and I remember they often did parodies of poems and songs, and one I particularly liked, but have mostly forgotten, is "D'ye ken John Birch?"--a takeoff on the old hunting song "D'ye ken John Peel?" Far from being obsolete, the teacher of my "History of the English Language" course as a graduate student said there were still places in Appalachia (I think) where the word was in current use. (Of course that was half a century ago!)

Before we stray too far from the original off-topic topic, I hope those interested in translating the Odyssey will have read Ezra Pound's remarkable Canto I, which in the spirit of what I hope for in a translation, has eschewed literal translation and created what is in fact an English equivalent, using inverted syntax and figures of speech such as kennings to suggest the bardic quality of the original:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/54314/canto-i

18bacchus.
Editat: abr. 27, 2022, 10:10 am

>17 Django6924: Modern Scots retains (with slight differences between dialects) tae ken "to know", kent "knew" or "known",

Funny, I've heard "ken" used quite a lot in Outlander and left me wondering; it's a popular TV show set in 18th century Scotland.

Etymologically (and like metis) seems like craft/skills and knowledge/wisdom are the basis of cunning.

19GusLogan
Editat: abr. 27, 2022, 11:34 am

>17 Django6924:
The Swedish ”känna” is (nowadays, at least) ”to feel”, but ”kunna” means ”to be able” (”jag kan” vs. the English ”I can”) and sometimes ”to know/master”. ”Kunnig” means ”knowledgeable”, so close to ”cunning” but without indicating slyness!

20Lukas1990
oct. 25, 2022, 4:01 pm

If Virgil wrote today...



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