Aquest tema està marcat com "inactiu": L'últim missatge és de fa més de 90 dies. Podeu revifar-lo enviant una resposta.
1gilroy
Well, in an attempt to garner discussion, I wanted to post a question to the masses.
I'm reading through the player's handbook for D&D 4th edition. I'm finding it feels more like someone merged collectable card games and minitures to form the rules set. Some MMORPG may be invovled, but someone pointed out that this made sense, since they borrowed from D&D originally.
What are people's opinion of the new system? Worth taking the time to play?
I'm reading through the player's handbook for D&D 4th edition. I'm finding it feels more like someone merged collectable card games and minitures to form the rules set. Some MMORPG may be invovled, but someone pointed out that this made sense, since they borrowed from D&D originally.
What are people's opinion of the new system? Worth taking the time to play?
2Lunatyk
I keep hearing that as a negative about 4th Edition... I played it a few times and loved it every time...
but I only played Dungeons and Dragons two or three times before leaving the table... so I might be biased...
but I only played Dungeons and Dragons two or three times before leaving the table... so I might be biased...
3SentryLerb
Well, you did ask:
I've played in two 4e campaigns. The campaigns were fun, but that was mostly due to the people and GMs. I hated the system.
Now I love minis, I use them in every game I run (D&D, L5R, Shadowrun, etc). I use floor plans and stuff as well. But I use them like props and for combat because they are an effective means to an end. They are visual and people respond well to them. They also make combats easier to handle, but you could easily use counters or whatever.
I also use other props when I can but that's another thing.
The system is very gamey. It's like they created a wargame system then added some roleplay bits. Now some people would go "you don't need rulez to roleplay" and that is mostly true. But you do need rules to arbitrate an outcome to a contest of somesort. The only outcomes 4e thinks are important are combats, and that is great if ALL you do is dungeon crawls and kick in the door style games. It works great for that. Anything else, it really falls down.
It's also very balanced (well it was, but I have noticed power creep in the newer books). To the point where a lot of the core stuff (well I say core, I mean PHB1 and whatnot, but apparently now, EVERYTHING is core) is just the same.
"Oh but things like fighters are way more fun! You can do more than just move and attack!". Well sort of. I can move and attack for X Damage and shift an opponent one square or some other stock effect. No, it's not really that different. =P
Also the higher level you get, the longer (and more boring) fights get. Apparently giving enemies a ton of hitpoints to cut through makes them more fun. Some may disagree, but it's such a problem people on the WotC forums often suggest cutting monster HP in half.
Then there's all the dissassociative mechanics (where stuff that happened in game combat was just really really hard to explain properly in character). Etc etc etc.
It's also a bit easy mode as well, I mean dying is viewed by the designers as a negative player experience, so the designers have done their best to ensure that is not much of a possibility at all at higher levels, and is never a permanent consequence once you pass into paragon tier. It's not "fun".
Skill Challenge system sucks by the way. There is however a much better house rule version of it out there on the internet though.
And "cloth" armour, wtf. Hi there WoW.
As for the MMO influences, they are definately there. Powers are more like cooldown than resource management. There are magic items that EMULATE MMO style systems (hi there Map of Orienteering, you're not the generic MMO mini-map are you?). Adventurer's Vault was hilarious to read through for that kinda stuff.
I could go on for ages about it. The really narrow skill list. The hundreds of different powers that are all really samey. The way attributes such as Strength, Dexterity and whatnot don't really mean a great deal anymore. (you could just call them Stat A, Stat B, etc, it would feel the same)
It's a well designed system, I'll give it that. It'd make a great Chainmail Plus or D&D Lite. Works well enough for a board game, but still has a few problems. It DOES work for roleplaying but it takes a lot of work by the GM if they plan on doing anything more than simple dungeon crawls.
But you might like it! I didn't. Some people do. You can get fun out of it and if you do, play it.
I really DO suggest you try it first though. It's definately very marmite-like when it comes to personal tastes though. I would play it again but only with specific people I know it'd be fun with. But I prefer 3e d20 over 4e D&D (though 3e needs its own house rules, but that is another post entirely!).
I've played in two 4e campaigns. The campaigns were fun, but that was mostly due to the people and GMs. I hated the system.
Now I love minis, I use them in every game I run (D&D, L5R, Shadowrun, etc). I use floor plans and stuff as well. But I use them like props and for combat because they are an effective means to an end. They are visual and people respond well to them. They also make combats easier to handle, but you could easily use counters or whatever.
I also use other props when I can but that's another thing.
The system is very gamey. It's like they created a wargame system then added some roleplay bits. Now some people would go "you don't need rulez to roleplay" and that is mostly true. But you do need rules to arbitrate an outcome to a contest of somesort. The only outcomes 4e thinks are important are combats, and that is great if ALL you do is dungeon crawls and kick in the door style games. It works great for that. Anything else, it really falls down.
It's also very balanced (well it was, but I have noticed power creep in the newer books). To the point where a lot of the core stuff (well I say core, I mean PHB1 and whatnot, but apparently now, EVERYTHING is core) is just the same.
"Oh but things like fighters are way more fun! You can do more than just move and attack!". Well sort of. I can move and attack for X Damage and shift an opponent one square or some other stock effect. No, it's not really that different. =P
Also the higher level you get, the longer (and more boring) fights get. Apparently giving enemies a ton of hitpoints to cut through makes them more fun. Some may disagree, but it's such a problem people on the WotC forums often suggest cutting monster HP in half.
Then there's all the dissassociative mechanics (where stuff that happened in game combat was just really really hard to explain properly in character). Etc etc etc.
It's also a bit easy mode as well, I mean dying is viewed by the designers as a negative player experience, so the designers have done their best to ensure that is not much of a possibility at all at higher levels, and is never a permanent consequence once you pass into paragon tier. It's not "fun".
Skill Challenge system sucks by the way. There is however a much better house rule version of it out there on the internet though.
And "cloth" armour, wtf. Hi there WoW.
As for the MMO influences, they are definately there. Powers are more like cooldown than resource management. There are magic items that EMULATE MMO style systems (hi there Map of Orienteering, you're not the generic MMO mini-map are you?). Adventurer's Vault was hilarious to read through for that kinda stuff.
I could go on for ages about it. The really narrow skill list. The hundreds of different powers that are all really samey. The way attributes such as Strength, Dexterity and whatnot don't really mean a great deal anymore. (you could just call them Stat A, Stat B, etc, it would feel the same)
It's a well designed system, I'll give it that. It'd make a great Chainmail Plus or D&D Lite. Works well enough for a board game, but still has a few problems. It DOES work for roleplaying but it takes a lot of work by the GM if they plan on doing anything more than simple dungeon crawls.
But you might like it! I didn't. Some people do. You can get fun out of it and if you do, play it.
I really DO suggest you try it first though. It's definately very marmite-like when it comes to personal tastes though. I would play it again but only with specific people I know it'd be fun with. But I prefer 3e d20 over 4e D&D (though 3e needs its own house rules, but that is another post entirely!).
